Sadie Schreiner set the 200-meter record and qualified for the Atlantic Region Championship with a time of 25.27 seconds at the RIT January Friday Meet. The runner also broke the 300-meter record with a 40.78-second finish.
So someone won at a college competition. About 1% of people are trans, so you’ll see some winners. It’d be weirder if you didn’t. The records stated there, 25s for the women’s 200? The world record has been <22s for decades now. That’s not exactly “dominating a sport”.
But do you notice how everyone quoted in the article is actively transphobic, misgendering her and another athlete? If this was truly about sports, why go to that length? You could have a nuanced, respectful debate about fairness in sport. Yet whenever the topic is trans people, it’s always those that already deny their very existence that are the most ‘concerned about fairness’. This has never been about sport.
This is just a convenient front for the right’s culture war bullshit. Don’t fall for it.
Whether or not records are being broken is not the correct way to determine if a certain population has an advantage over the other. A variation toward the top performers could be interpreted as an unfair advantage. If this particular very small group of athletes is in the top 5% than one could think something is anti-competative about this arrangement.
Once again, the same is true for many other factors. Long legs help to be good at running, I’d presume, but we’re not measuring femurs for college sports. And the variation in top performers does not exist, at least not in the way you’re impling. Trans people are actually statistically underrepresented in competitive sports.
The singular focus on a handful of trans athletes, while actively misgendering those same athletes, is a hate and harassment campaign spread by people who couldn’t care less about fairness in sport.
Equating genetic outcomes (e.g. height) and advantages gained through a male or female puberty is a mathematical malpractice. Any advantages gained through male puberty will be seen across an entire biologically male population. Whereas genetic lottery outcomes are less predictable and more sparse.
There is an argument to be had about how a trans female’s advantages gained through a male puberty can be minimized through hormone blockers. However, I would presume advantages already gained through their frame would be retained. I am not opposed allowing these athletes to participate to determine if this hypothesis would hold. However, I doubt the ample data needed to test this is/would be collected across all levels of competition where applicable.
If the handful of trans athletes are mostly top performers, it could indicate that their participation hinders the competitiveness of the competition.
Equating genetic outcomes (e.g. height) and advantages gained through a male or female puberty is a mathematical malpractice. Any advantages gained through male puberty will be seen across an entire biologically male population. Whereas genetic lottery outcomes are less predictable and more sparse.
What do you define as “biologically male” here? This is a term often used by bigots, so I just want to make sure we’re on the same base. Biology isn’t binary, far from it. Intersex people are the ones most often caught up in any sort of gender testing for sports. Most of them don’t even know they are intersex, and find out through some competition excluding them. And what about trans women that went on puberty blockers early, that never went through a testosterone-driven puberty? While the advantage for someone who did go through puberty is debatable and varies from discipline to discipline, for someone who didn’t it’s non-existent. Would you agree that it’s only fair that they should be allowed to compete? Where do you draw the line then?
If the handful of trans athletes are mostly top performers, it could indicate that their participation hinders the competitiveness of the competition.
And you are getting this claim from where, exactly? This is pure conjecture on your part
For the purpose of this discussion, “biologically male” refers to someone who experiences or would experience a male puberty. Thus, receiving the physical developments associated with that. Any discussion otherwise Is tangential. If you were to measure the physical performance of a given individual, and said performance is consistent with other males, we can indicate this person as biologically male.
Discussion about intersex persons is harder to delineate than what we are talking about here. it also is not the topic at hand.
The only reason I replied to this thread is because you asked for a single example of a trans person dominating a sport. In the article provided there is a link to that athletes page of performances at several meets. I would say by most definitions applied in the athletic world she is dominating. Whether they have an advantage due to their previously male physiology, I cannot say. I am simply outlining conditions for which one could claim that a trans person has an advantage. I am not concerned enough about this topic to scrounge up data to refine any claims we are making here, and I am doubtful the necessary data exists.
That’s a curious definition, as that makes trans men biologically male as well? “Would experience male puberty” is also really, really vague. As I’ve asked before, what about a trans woman that went on puberty blockers early and never got a testosterone puberty?
The only reason I replied to this thread is because you asked for a single example of a trans person dominating a sport
Yes, and I’ve told you that a trans person winning in college sports, while still performing well within the margins of other cis women, is not “dominating a sport”, rather, it would be weird if no trans person won every now and again, because there are a lot of trans people and a lot of people playing sports.
Imagine if people talked about any other group of people in sports like it has been become acceptable to talk about trans women. Did you know that white racists protested against black women participating in sports because they were perceived as “too manly”?
Sure a trans man can experience a male puberty, they just take action to incite it rather than it naturally occurring. Perhaps the more accurate term would be testosterone puberty as you said. In both cases they are afforded the physical advantages of increased testosterone levels. However, I am not sure how trans men could come to mind in this discussion as they are far out of scope. They take drugs that would likely be considered performance enhancing by a sporting org. There are further regulation and implementation concerns regarding them.
Regarding your question. All that matters is if the athlete is afforded an advantage via their male physiology. If one renders these advantages negligible if the athlete takes hormone blockers as a pre-pubescent via scientific methods, then so be it let them compete. It does not seem all that unlikely. Pre-pubescent children are generally allowed to compete in the same sporting competitions.
That athletes performance over late 2023 to now appears to be 73% percent of events in the top 3. That’s dominating the competition. Also, you appear to be limiting this performance discussion to the athlete performing within the minimum and maximum performance of a female athlete, which is flawed.
If we visualize athlete performance for males and females as two separate normal distributions. The mean performance of females relative to males would likely shift the female distribution lower. However, some overlap would exist (best female athletes could outperform the worst male athletes). I am not sure how much they would overlap, perhaps the best female athletes can perform beyond the average male athlete.
A proper investigation would be to see if any given individual has a net shift along the performance distribution as a result of male physiology. If they do it compromises the competitive integrity of woman’s sports. That article I posted also provides an Instagram post by the athlete. In which the difference in size between her and her competition is apparent to the naked eye. Her size affords her much longer strides than the ones she is competing against. If these differences were the result of a testosterone puberty or previously male physiology, then one could hypothesize there is a problem.
Source
So someone won at a college competition. About 1% of people are trans, so you’ll see some winners. It’d be weirder if you didn’t. The records stated there, 25s for the women’s 200? The world record has been <22s for decades now. That’s not exactly “dominating a sport”.
But do you notice how everyone quoted in the article is actively transphobic, misgendering her and another athlete? If this was truly about sports, why go to that length? You could have a nuanced, respectful debate about fairness in sport. Yet whenever the topic is trans people, it’s always those that already deny their very existence that are the most ‘concerned about fairness’. This has never been about sport.
This is just a convenient front for the right’s culture war bullshit. Don’t fall for it.
Whether or not records are being broken is not the correct way to determine if a certain population has an advantage over the other. A variation toward the top performers could be interpreted as an unfair advantage. If this particular very small group of athletes is in the top 5% than one could think something is anti-competative about this arrangement.
Once again, the same is true for many other factors. Long legs help to be good at running, I’d presume, but we’re not measuring femurs for college sports. And the variation in top performers does not exist, at least not in the way you’re impling. Trans people are actually statistically underrepresented in competitive sports.
The singular focus on a handful of trans athletes, while actively misgendering those same athletes, is a hate and harassment campaign spread by people who couldn’t care less about fairness in sport.
Equating genetic outcomes (e.g. height) and advantages gained through a male or female puberty is a mathematical malpractice. Any advantages gained through male puberty will be seen across an entire biologically male population. Whereas genetic lottery outcomes are less predictable and more sparse.
There is an argument to be had about how a trans female’s advantages gained through a male puberty can be minimized through hormone blockers. However, I would presume advantages already gained through their frame would be retained. I am not opposed allowing these athletes to participate to determine if this hypothesis would hold. However, I doubt the ample data needed to test this is/would be collected across all levels of competition where applicable.
If the handful of trans athletes are mostly top performers, it could indicate that their participation hinders the competitiveness of the competition.
What do you define as “biologically male” here? This is a term often used by bigots, so I just want to make sure we’re on the same base. Biology isn’t binary, far from it. Intersex people are the ones most often caught up in any sort of gender testing for sports. Most of them don’t even know they are intersex, and find out through some competition excluding them. And what about trans women that went on puberty blockers early, that never went through a testosterone-driven puberty? While the advantage for someone who did go through puberty is debatable and varies from discipline to discipline, for someone who didn’t it’s non-existent. Would you agree that it’s only fair that they should be allowed to compete? Where do you draw the line then?
And you are getting this claim from where, exactly? This is pure conjecture on your part
For the purpose of this discussion, “biologically male” refers to someone who experiences or would experience a male puberty. Thus, receiving the physical developments associated with that. Any discussion otherwise Is tangential. If you were to measure the physical performance of a given individual, and said performance is consistent with other males, we can indicate this person as biologically male.
Discussion about intersex persons is harder to delineate than what we are talking about here. it also is not the topic at hand.
The only reason I replied to this thread is because you asked for a single example of a trans person dominating a sport. In the article provided there is a link to that athletes page of performances at several meets. I would say by most definitions applied in the athletic world she is dominating. Whether they have an advantage due to their previously male physiology, I cannot say. I am simply outlining conditions for which one could claim that a trans person has an advantage. I am not concerned enough about this topic to scrounge up data to refine any claims we are making here, and I am doubtful the necessary data exists.
That’s a curious definition, as that makes trans men biologically male as well? “Would experience male puberty” is also really, really vague. As I’ve asked before, what about a trans woman that went on puberty blockers early and never got a testosterone puberty?
Yes, and I’ve told you that a trans person winning in college sports, while still performing well within the margins of other cis women, is not “dominating a sport”, rather, it would be weird if no trans person won every now and again, because there are a lot of trans people and a lot of people playing sports.
Imagine if people talked about any other group of people in sports like it has been become acceptable to talk about trans women. Did you know that white racists protested against black women participating in sports because they were perceived as “too manly”?
Sure a trans man can experience a male puberty, they just take action to incite it rather than it naturally occurring. Perhaps the more accurate term would be testosterone puberty as you said. In both cases they are afforded the physical advantages of increased testosterone levels. However, I am not sure how trans men could come to mind in this discussion as they are far out of scope. They take drugs that would likely be considered performance enhancing by a sporting org. There are further regulation and implementation concerns regarding them.
Regarding your question. All that matters is if the athlete is afforded an advantage via their male physiology. If one renders these advantages negligible if the athlete takes hormone blockers as a pre-pubescent via scientific methods, then so be it let them compete. It does not seem all that unlikely. Pre-pubescent children are generally allowed to compete in the same sporting competitions.
That athletes performance over late 2023 to now appears to be 73% percent of events in the top 3. That’s dominating the competition. Also, you appear to be limiting this performance discussion to the athlete performing within the minimum and maximum performance of a female athlete, which is flawed.
If we visualize athlete performance for males and females as two separate normal distributions. The mean performance of females relative to males would likely shift the female distribution lower. However, some overlap would exist (best female athletes could outperform the worst male athletes). I am not sure how much they would overlap, perhaps the best female athletes can perform beyond the average male athlete.
A proper investigation would be to see if any given individual has a net shift along the performance distribution as a result of male physiology. If they do it compromises the competitive integrity of woman’s sports. That article I posted also provides an Instagram post by the athlete. In which the difference in size between her and her competition is apparent to the naked eye. Her size affords her much longer strides than the ones she is competing against. If these differences were the result of a testosterone puberty or previously male physiology, then one could hypothesize there is a problem.