My question about trans men was to clarify what you previously called “biologically male”, which you seem to mean “experienced testosterone puberty” (strange definition, but sure)
As for your second point, I’m confused, why are you talking about male athletes now? You’re aware that having experienced testosterone puberty at some point is not the same as having a testosterone dominated body? Muscle density and mass, fat distribution, some cardiovascular effects, and many more things that are associated with testosterone are impermanent, and disappear/shift towards a estrogen-typical distribution when testosterone is suppressed (over the span of 1-2 years, with some variance)
Height and bone structure are some of the few things that don’t change on HRT. Which brings me back to one of my old points: Why should a cis woman that is 1.80m tall be allowed to compete, but a trans woman should not?
We appear to be having a miscommunication. Someone who is born a male will on average see greater increases in physical capability if they do not suppress or alter their development.
As you say, a trans woman can negate these advantages by some amount with HRT. They still however retain advantages through things that are not affected by HRT (bone structure, height, etc.)
To your third point. Because height is an optimal genetic outcome, and is largely uncontrollable. There are some weird people who procreate with the goal of achieving optimal genetic outcomes, but those people are few and far between. Someone can be born a man, reap the benefits of a male puberty(bone structure, height, ect.), then become a trans woman athlete. That is a completely controllable path that circumvents some amount of training and preparation other participants in the sport have to do. This sort of thing fits the description of a ‘loophole’.
I never said definitively that trans women shouldn’t be able to participate. However, there are some questions that need to be answered in order to do this kind of thing without compromising competition. These questions are:
- Is HRT required for trans woman to be eligible to compete? (it appears yes it should be)
- Can performance advantages gained through physiology unaffected by HRT be considered negligible? (my intuition
tells me no. However, I could be wrong given enough performance data)
- Does HRT actually negate their capabilities to the level you are claiming?
- Are any potential advantages completely avoided by starting HRT as a prepubescent? (This does not seem far-
fetched. Males and females often compete against one another as prepubescents in publicly sanctioned leagues)
HRT is already mandatory to compete at basically every level. The whole “you can just identify as a woman and compete” is scaremongering by transphobes.
Someone can be born a man, reap the benefits of a male puberty(bone structure, height, ect.), then become a trans woman athlete. That is a completely controllable path that circumvents some amount of training and preparation other participants in the sport have to do.
You make it sound like being trans is a choice one can make to give themselves an advantage, and let me just say, yikes. Being trans is not a completely controllable path, just as your height or if you’re left handed is not.
The median trans woman is likely taller than the median cis woman. This does not justify why she should be excluded. We don’t treat other categories like this, either. The median Dutch woman is taller than the median Korean woman. But you don’t see politicians making a fuss about the Dutch in sports, now do you?
What are you trying to say? You’re either saying being trans is a choice (yikes!)
Or you’re saying cis men would go through years of transition, crippling dysphoria from transitioning into the wrong gender, the social ostracization that comes from being transgender in general and a trans athlete in specific, all to… get a potential, marginal advantage? That’s a fantasy.
The amount of emotions you superimpose over the discussion doesn’t change the fact that it is a highly repeatable avenue to gain an advantage. Unlike the genetic markers you have mentioned.
There are athletes that forgo companionship, marriage, having children, etc. to improve in their sport. It is not uncommon for people to withstand tremendous sacrifice to reach their goals.
We have entered the subjectivity debate, which I am not interested in having. This was an interesting conversation nonetheless.
My question about trans men was to clarify what you previously called “biologically male”, which you seem to mean “experienced testosterone puberty” (strange definition, but sure)
As for your second point, I’m confused, why are you talking about male athletes now? You’re aware that having experienced testosterone puberty at some point is not the same as having a testosterone dominated body? Muscle density and mass, fat distribution, some cardiovascular effects, and many more things that are associated with testosterone are impermanent, and disappear/shift towards a estrogen-typical distribution when testosterone is suppressed (over the span of 1-2 years, with some variance)
Height and bone structure are some of the few things that don’t change on HRT. Which brings me back to one of my old points: Why should a cis woman that is 1.80m tall be allowed to compete, but a trans woman should not?
We appear to be having a miscommunication. Someone who is born a male will on average see greater increases in physical capability if they do not suppress or alter their development.
As you say, a trans woman can negate these advantages by some amount with HRT. They still however retain advantages through things that are not affected by HRT (bone structure, height, etc.)
To your third point. Because height is an optimal genetic outcome, and is largely uncontrollable. There are some weird people who procreate with the goal of achieving optimal genetic outcomes, but those people are few and far between. Someone can be born a man, reap the benefits of a male puberty(bone structure, height, ect.), then become a trans woman athlete. That is a completely controllable path that circumvents some amount of training and preparation other participants in the sport have to do. This sort of thing fits the description of a ‘loophole’.
I never said definitively that trans women shouldn’t be able to participate. However, there are some questions that need to be answered in order to do this kind of thing without compromising competition. These questions are: - Is HRT required for trans woman to be eligible to compete? (it appears yes it should be) - Can performance advantages gained through physiology unaffected by HRT be considered negligible? (my intuition tells me no. However, I could be wrong given enough performance data) - Does HRT actually negate their capabilities to the level you are claiming? - Are any potential advantages completely avoided by starting HRT as a prepubescent? (This does not seem far- fetched. Males and females often compete against one another as prepubescents in publicly sanctioned leagues)
HRT is already mandatory to compete at basically every level. The whole “you can just identify as a woman and compete” is scaremongering by transphobes.
You make it sound like being trans is a choice one can make to give themselves an advantage, and let me just say, yikes. Being trans is not a completely controllable path, just as your height or if you’re left handed is not.
The median trans woman is likely taller than the median cis woman. This does not justify why she should be excluded. We don’t treat other categories like this, either. The median Dutch woman is taller than the median Korean woman. But you don’t see politicians making a fuss about the Dutch in sports, now do you?
It can be completely controllable if one so chooses
What are you trying to say? You’re either saying being trans is a choice (yikes!)
Or you’re saying cis men would go through years of transition, crippling dysphoria from transitioning into the wrong gender, the social ostracization that comes from being transgender in general and a trans athlete in specific, all to… get a potential, marginal advantage? That’s a fantasy.
Either way, I don’t get your point
The amount of emotions you superimpose over the discussion doesn’t change the fact that it is a highly repeatable avenue to gain an advantage. Unlike the genetic markers you have mentioned.
???
who would do this? seriously
There are athletes that forgo companionship, marriage, having children, etc. to improve in their sport. It is not uncommon for people to withstand tremendous sacrifice to reach their goals.
We have entered the subjectivity debate, which I am not interested in having. This was an interesting conversation nonetheless.