• tired_fedora@lemmy.ml
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    48 minutes ago

    Things we agree on:

    • The Nazis did horrible things in Europe before and during WW2.
    • The USA invaded or otherwise waged war against multiple countries in the middle east and that is not okay. Other NATO countries supported these actions. Note: My original comment was about wheat shipments from Ukraine, which is why I had focused on Ukraine and Eastern Europe in general.
    • Not holding elections in Ukraine, while legal by their constitution and not uncommon in countries at all out war, does not look great.

    Things I hope we can agree on:

    • Ethnic and cultural groups (like the Kurds, the Crimean Tartars, the Palestinians, the Crimean Russians, and many others) have a right to self-determination. This is often expressed as a right to statehood, although that is complicated by the benefits of self-sufficiency that larger states can provide. This tension is not always easy to dissolve. This is related to the next point:
    • The post WW2 international order has outlined a legal framework to prevent conflict on that scale from happening again, which is the legal framework I am referencing in a number of posts above and comments below. While flawed (e.g., broad veto powers of some countries in the security council), this framework is a great achievement and should carry weight, as it’s the best we currently have to determining when countries can use military force and when not.
    • Since World War 2 any Central and Eastern European country basically had a choice of associating with either Russia or the USA, both for economic and security considerations (choice is often very euphemistic here: Many of the Eastern European Countries were conquered during WW2 and then had a long struggle towards being allowed that choice). Many of these countries chose the USA over Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union. The reasons are certainly complex, but among them may be a preference of the populace of these countries for a capitalist liberal democracy over an autocratic oligarchy with or without the face of communism (pre/post 1990). Associating with one of these blocks has led these countries to support or at the very least not principally oppose military actions of at the very least questionable legality and morality, especially in the Middle East.
    • Sweden held no colonies since 1878, and even those were rather few. Some Baltic territory was colonized by Imperial Germany. Of any European countries, these may have among the least “blood on their hands” regarding the exploitation of the Global South.
    • The Swedish airspace is not sacrosanct. You had asked about Russian aggression in recent history. I brought up these maneuvers over Swedish airspace (as well as attacking undersea cables and most likely the Nordstream 2 pipeline), the invasion of Georgia in 2008 (as well as in the early 1990s), the invasion of Crimea in 2014 and of the rest of Ukraine in 2022. This goes in addition to invading Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Afghanistan to fight local uprisings or independence movements (going back to that tricky question of self-determination), as well as supplying arms and expertise to various proxies during the Cold War. If “recent history” goes back as far as WW2, this also includes the invasion of Poland, as well as the occupation of most of Eastern Europe for the 45 years following WW2.
    • Sweden used to be neutral, non-aligned, and non-aggressive until some time between the late 1990s and early 2000s. It only joined NATO in 2024, a process that really gathered steam only after and because of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
    • The major public protests against the regime in Iran before the war were largely carried by the populace and were beaten down with disproportionate violence. This does not change the fact that opening war against Iran by the US was an act of aggression that was almost certainly not in accordance with international law.

    Things we don’t agree on (written from my perspective):

    • NATO has no combat troops in Ukraine by its own and by third party accounts. Small numbers of non-combat troops have been deployed, e.g., for training Ukrainian soldiers, though the vast majority of these is not in Ukraine.
    • While the political far-right is sadly growing in many European countries, most European countries are still functioning democracies. In fact, European countries are consistently ranked among the most democratic countries in the world. The memory of the terrible crimes and victims of Nazi Germany in WW2 is preserved. Only fringe Neo-Nazi movements glorify the perpetrators.
    • Georgia did not start the Russo-Georgian war of 2008. You point to attacks on Russian “peace keepers”. I can equally point to articles saying South-Ossetian separatists, using weapons supplied by Russia, started the escalation by attacking Georgian villages. One can then also ask why there should even be Russian “peace keepers” on Georgian territory. That’s a euphemistic way of saying Georgia fought against occupying forces, a view I’m sure you’ll agree on when it’s about the 2021 US withdrawal from Afghanistan, for example.
    • The 2014 Ukrainian revolution was not a coup led by foreign powers. At least between 2014 and 2022, Ukrainian democracy was working fairly well. It was definitely more free, fair, and just, than Russian elections, to name but one example.