Hybrid mode do me well.
Allows to have the advantages that on site have ( real contact with the collegues ) while allowing to take a breath from transportation.
Management are assholes and idiots.
Nothing will get better without demands. People need to organize.
But if I’ve learned anything from history, it’s that the ownership class would rather murder all of their employees than give a few dollars more a day.
It’s because the few more dollars per day empowers people not to have to deal with exploitative practices, to be able to save an emergency fund, to be able to look elsewhere for opportunities.
They had literal segments on Fox where they were complaining that companies couldn’t strong arm people anymore because COVID turned the balance in labor value. Uber is known to give desperation compensation much lower then drivers who are more selective. Data is used to min-max labor exploitation.
I have an unusual situation - immaterial commute, flexible hours - and enjoy working in the office more than working from home. Have done both and working from home is a drag.
Doesn’t mean I’d force others to come in! But the only thing worse than a meeting is a teams meeting, and there is a lot of value for me getting that space back in my house, and in the incidental learning I both receive and provide to others when we are in person. Also it’s entirely possible I’m too introverted to happily work from home.
So as long as work provides a common space to work I am happier here. I do think the environment benefits from fewer commuters but I don’t drive to work because it’s so close.
The real problem is usually not the office itself, but the journey there and back.
Yeah I am very,very sensitive to commute time, and recognize my situation is uncommon (arranged on purpose though - I won’t take a job far or more than one city bus away) I wonder how the answers would change if the office was in the same building as your apartment, or within a mile as mine is. I really don’t want any part of my home life to be my employment.
I couldn’t agree more: if the commute took less than 20 minutes (on foot or by bike), remote working would probably be rated less favourably.
Capitalism as we know it, isn’t about effectiveness nor efficiency, it is primarily about power. So long as this remains the case, workers will continue to be abused for the amusement of the higher ups.
If they would get rid of these terrible open plan offices, where people can hear the silent fart you try to squeeze out gently, and go back to offices where you at least would have a smidgen of privacy, this would improve office attendance.
While some part of me misses my fortress cubicle and undershelf lamp, complete with pillar obstructing the window so I had just two vertical slits…
I still only did good work there when I was alone in the office, usually before or after most people’s office hours.
Once enough people showed up it just became a daily social event ritual. This was well before covid.
Surprise surprise
I just changed careers from 100% remote for the last 6yrs, to 100% on-site, and it’s bittersweet. I’m really going to miss the freedom.
After more than 20 years of working remotely, I can’t imagine working on-site at all anymore. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for you!
Whether it’s a mix of control or egos, I think it is mostly about the fallacy that they are leaving unspent productivity on the table. Yet, COVID proved that people can be effective at home. It’s nonsense to assume that you won’t do the job and then somehow get paid for it. It’s a strawman.
That is why, after all logical arguments were made, and bad faith responses dispelled, they chose to say it was about culture. That undefinable metric exist solely in the validation of HR and management. Pizza lunches, recognition events, and captive audiences.
Yes, and…
those in upper management need us to see them there, in front of us, IN CHARGE.
That’s all it’s about. They need you to kneel and scrape and fucking bow, and for that, you gotta sit in a car ten hours a week and work in an uncomfortable open-space cubicle where you can hear everything, including Betty from finance chewing.
All day, every day, so that Brent the VP can feed off your collective energy admiring him like he’s a big shot. That’s why he’s the only asshole who wears a tie to an office of business casual colleagues.
Can confirm. How Money Works talks about it (Here on YouTube) regarding the recent mass layoffs by big tech, first, by pressure through RTO mandates, then blaming layoffs on AI, only they got rid of too many people and their businesses couldn’t run.
So why did they do it? Vindictiveness. Because of the great resignation during which workers had some negotiating power, and the C-suite resented that and wanted to show everyone who’s boss.
I’ve been following the trend since the early 2010s when we realized that crunching development teams is useless for meeting deadlines, but dev companies crunch anyway, traumatizing the team.
I’m pretty sure billionaires aren’t especially bright, rather started with generational wealth and then got richer through luck and ruthlessness, to the point that they only failed upwards. (There are a few exceptions who understand the social contract, but they really are exceptions.)
And they surround themselves with sycophants so that their psyches are completely comfortable. They stop actually considering data or news that might hurt their feelings, which means they make bad decisions that cost their companies money.
extroverts can’t understand that not everyone is like them. more at 11
Even if they do understand that, I’m not sure it matters. I’m an introvert so I know how easy it is to think of extroverts as annoying, overbearing sausages. However they have needs just like I do. Isolation genuinely harms them just like over stimulation harms me. I think it brings some realism to this topic if we remember that maybe they aren’t doing everything they’re doing just for the sake of shoving extroversion down your throat: maybe they are just trying to meet their own needs. It’s like the flip side of what introverts always say: don’t take it personally if I need to withdraw from you, I’m just meeting my own needs. Can you make the same allowance for them?
Sure, but they have the easier solution. They can socialize anywhere. Meanwhile, for us: income isn’t optional.
To say nothing of the ethics of using a captive audience to meet your ‘needs.’
Right? I often like being around people. I don’t want to do it in the fucking office
As an extrovert, please let me work from home. It’ll save me a commute so I can spend more time with people I like
Yeah. COVID lockdown was my golden era.
I secretly despised people at my company that wanted to demolish remote working completely after COVID on the pretence that people are traumaticed by the solitude and need to get back on the horse 100%.
Eventually only max. 30% remote was allowed and became company norm.
Even then some of these pieces of shit actually forbid remote working from their subordinates.
Those subordinates then gave them absolutely garbage employee reviews and made their worklife hell. Now they are in some other company torturing some other poor souls.
It was everyone’s golden era. And then the owner class pressured the political class to memory hole the period so we forgot all the lessons we learned.
It’s why we need to bring unions back to forcibly make sure those lessons are applied.
These are the same people who create useless team building exercises.
Extroverts can’t understand that not everone wants to listen to them yap. Updates at the hour.
Here’s the actual study if anyone cares to read it.
Skimming it, a couple things I noticed: This was a study of over 7,000 people across all departments at a large healthcare system. They found on-site workers skewed younger with shorter tenure and remote workers skewed older with longer tenure.
One potential pitfall: They didn’t control in any way for department or role, and so floor nurses and housekeeping staff who must work fully on-site are being compared to tenured nurses working utilization review or revenue cycle staff whose job is billing/coding and who don’t have to interact with anyone in their roles. In-person and remote jobs in healthcare tend to be very different jobs. I don’t know how well this study could be generalized to other types of job settings based on this info
Thank you, this was exactly what I was wondering. I’m all for remote work, however it’s not really fair to compare completely different roles.
Job satisfaction has so many variables, I don’t envy the difficulty of designing an accurate study of this.
That domain is “Frontiers In”, but it would be so much cooler if it were “Frontier Sin”. I want to stay apprised of all the latest developments in crimes against morality
Turns out the commute, fluorescent lighting, constant interruptions and performative desk sitting weren’t secretly essential ingredients for human happiness after all. Shocking. Next study: 7,700 managers discover that seeing someone in a chair is not actually a productivity metric.
Yeah it’s interesting to think about. I’ve been 100% remote for more than SIX YEARS now. Since the first days of COVID. And I’m so deep into it that I’m suffering the ill effects of remote: lack of social interaction with coworkers. Feeling shut up at home all the time. Having to work with people in crazy times zones because remote means you work with whoever, wherever. Zoom fatigue. Lack of separation between work and home life. There are definitely downsides. And some of them are pretty serious. The isolation has really eaten at me, especially.
But would I go back to full time? Heck no.
True, similar here. I go to coworking space to eat lunch in the commom area and talk to people.
I’ve been working remotely for over 20 years. One of my subsidiaries is entirely decentralised and remote. I can’t imagine doing anything else now.
I would like to have the option to assemble at an office when we want to, but our company embraced remote so completely that they let a bunch of leases expire and closed whole regional offices. Saved a ton of cash. But it does mean that I never see even my coworkers who are in the same metro area. And that’s a bit of a bummer.
To some extent, work has always been a way to make friends, and that’s also completely off the table now. There just aren’t those spare moments at the water cooler or drinks after work to be the basis of that. I’m older so this is hardly a dealbreaker for me but if I think back to my younger years where I was still building myself and my life, it would be a serious deficiency.
We meet up regularly. The whole team, too. It’s expensive, but priceless.
How often do you do it? What does it look like (Lunch - weeklong visit?)? And who pays for it?
If you don’t mind my asking. I don’t meet many people with 20YOE doing this :)
Copy: »Based on two decades of experience: As a general rule, there should be regular in-person team events (around two a year and just for fun). In addition, there should be joint training sessions (also around two a year). … Cooking together is brilliant: just two days ago we held our summer strategy meeting at a cookery school, where we cooked and enjoyed a three-course meal together. Basically, anything that encourages plenty of interaction and offers a completely different setting to the usual one is ideal.« We (the company) pay everything. It’s a »regular« workday.
And 7,600 of them discover that aside from micromanaging and degrading the well-being of their employees, they have no other substantive job duties, and their employment is completely pointless.
I became a manager about a year ago. Now that I’m part of the “inner circle”, I can see firsthand what I suspected for the past 20 years.
There are 2 types of managers.
There are cunts bosses who treat their employees as property for their personal gain and advancement. They demand productivity at all costs (see: LLM-cogsuckers), punish for mistakes and pressure people into responsibilities they should take. They are the ones who want RTO to exert control on their employees. They are the ones who “joke” you must take a half-day leave if you need to go before 6PM. They are the ones who openly shit on their employees (or other teams employees FWIW) because they’re not benefiting them enough. They are not part of the team, they feel and act above everyone in it.
The second type, which I strive to be and most of my closest “manager friend” are, are servant-leaders. They want to get shit done by easing roadblocks and making technologically informed decisions. They understand that productivity is a consequence of a functional team and happy employees. They take on responsibility for mistakes and push the team towards finding solutions to prevent them. They understand that LifeTM is more important than work. They are an integral part of the team, they’re not the boss but a full member with a different role and different responsibilities, like a PO or a data analyst.
As a tech lead first and a trained Scrum Master second, I feel much more comfortable in the second role. I help the team internally and report and manage external roadblocks with other teams. It’s what I already know. I hate the hierarchical part of the job.
I had 2 such 2nd type bosses in over 20 years.
You really notice they’re how you described when they’re gone - the deluge of shit begins almost immediately.This guy manages and gets it.
Most of my managers have been the second type, although how effective they are at it has varied a lot. Some are very passive and that has been good and bad, being left alone is great when things are going well. But when you need help they are useless.
The best have been the ones that know a decent amount about the job, they can either help you directly or know exactly where to point you for it. That or they understand the pain and you can both cry together for 4 days with a SQL database and increasingly vague error messages.
A note, they demand their own SUBJECTIVE PERCEPTION of productivity, not objectively measured productivity itself.
Of course. In this case productivity is a shorthand for obedience. If you do everything I tell you to do, when I tell you to do it and have it done before I need it so I can look good to my managers, then I will deem you productive. Meanwhile, their requirements are completely fucked up and impossible to implement as is, and the deadline is impossible to achieve.
Keep at the good stuff, managers with a functional brain are rare. Best of luck keeping sane with all the dumb politicking and other “inner circle” BS.
I fucking hate politics so much…
There’s a guy in my team. I need to push him into a more advanced role. Because he deserves it, and because otherwise I might lose him. I brought him in from another team where things were going bad. Real bad. Turns out, all he needed was a human working with another human, not an type 1 cunt demanding output from a walking, breathing toolset. He already fits and fills that role within the team, but I need to make it official. Better pay, more perspectives. I know I’m gonna get cockblocked by the fuckers who still hate him for the wrong reasons. Career reviews are at the end of the year and I already dread it. I need to get involved in politics and I’m terrified of it.
Good job. You’re one of the 100 out of that 7,700 managers who actually do something productive and manage properly.
Obviously, that number of 100 is arbitrary to make a wider point. To be fair, it’s probably a significantly higher percentage than I provided in my hypothetical. But holy shit are there waaaaay too many of the type 1 and far too few of the type 2 that you outlined.
But then who will ask you for a pointless status update during a daily sync up everyday
Performative desk sitting is the worst. Got nothing to do so I have to just click on things.
Has anyone done a study yet to see how many managers’ insecurities about remote work can be handled by placing mannequins in chairs at the office?
I’m about to support a satellite launch later this month. Guess what, I have supported the development from my house for the last 5 years. Surprise surprise, butts in seats aren’t necessary.
They signed a 20-year lease 10 years ago so they feel like they have to use the building.
Source: wild assumptions, i know nothing about commercial real estate.
It’s more the canteen and coffee shops onsite I think.
Our place guarantees minimum revenue to the canteen.
The company has to pay extra if the staff aren’t there.
Then there’s all the other businesses in the area. I imagine they come under pressure from local government to bring workers back to save those businesses
I betcha a nickle that the fines paid to the canteen would be more than offset by the increase in profits due to worker productivity.
It’s like the time theft myth, the belief that workers will intrinsically slack unless you micromanage them. In fact the opposite is true, when workforces are allowed to chat with loved ones and surf the internet their productivity improves.
Curiously, when a company mandates that 15-minute breaks are taken and lunch is eaten during lunch break (even when workers are obsessive and want to work through breaks) then their productivity improves even more.
But the upper management of companies don’t actually want to manage in a way that data shows maximizes profits.
“I think flexibility is here to stay,” she said.
This is the problem with academics. They do a study, find something is logically better, then assume humans will act logically.
Unfortunately, most CEOs don’t give a shit if their employees are more happy, productive, and less likely to quit if they work remotely. They just want to feel like they have control over people’s lives, which is why we’re seeing more return to office initiatives.
As the other reader says, the point of studies is to develop objective truth.
After one generation, this new objective truth starts getting ingrained in people’s minds. That’s usually because after one generation the people who held old beliefs are out of the scene and new young people who believe in obvious things come to be part of the scene.
That’s how society changes over time. Not people changing their minds, but new people with a different way of seeing the same things.
An old saying is change comes one funeral at a time.
The point of the study is to generate knowledge, not to set policy.
RTO work often is about control and not about cost or efficiency.
Or encouraging people to quit on their own. It’s a lot cheaper than firing people.
they got tired of RTO, since people dint quit fast enough, htey just did layoffs after layoffs.
Quit my last job over being asked in once a week. It was the commute rather than the office that I really wanted to avoid but it was also an awful open plan hotdesk office for a company of hundreds of people I didn’t know or care about.
New role is office based but I don’t need to drive or take public transport and teams have their own rooms to work in. Much smaller company too, under 30 people. Banter is far better here and that helps quite a bit.
Lack of commute is the only reason I took an in office job again too. I’ve spent like 7 out of 8 years of my career working from home and I really didn’t think I’d ever be convinced to go back but my new job’s office is under 10 minutes away by bike and I get at least one day a week to work from home. It’s officially 4 days a week in office but my manager is really relaxed about that requirement if my work is getting done
Also because commercial landlords demanded it. In Canada the biggest push for it was from Oxford Properties. They even managed to get the Mayor of Toronto, Olivia Chow, who is about as liberal as we’re gonna get up here to push for it. Never voting for that corporate shill again.
I can’t believe how much more I get done when I’m left alone and focused on the task at hand.
I don’t feel particularly isolated. Everybody is different but a once-week team chat and seasonal social lunches fill my cup.
Turns out when you can do errands and meet non-work friends for coffee as you please you don’t need to lean on your office family so much for connection and purpose.
I have daily voice calls, usually several times a day.
Seems like my country has mostly moved back to offices now though and finding remote contracts is tough. Man I miss the pandemic. Not the death and suffering, just the compassion some people showed others. Sure there was a lot of people who just lost their minds entirely, but I feel like the overall sense of community was better back then.
Yeah, but community doesn’t make the corpo pigs moneyz, so back to in-office work, slave!/s
Yeah not a problem at all for many. The ineffective remote workers are the same ones ineffective in the office, the ones on 15-minute side chats in the cube rows (loud of course) every hour. Great collaboration on the latest sportsball match, glad we were able to bring that back.
We actually have the recommendation too: oif you need to do something like sign for a package, let a contractor in for an hour to fix something, etc, then use a vacation day (with 2 weeks prior notice, of course). The flexibility goes both ways though, “can you do this quick thing Wednesday night”?now gets escalated to find approval for after hours work. Payroll/HR is not very flexible or responsive.
Who TF is using up an entire PTO day so they can sign off on a package when they are literally already home?
It takes me longer to take a shit than it does to sign for a package.
And It definitely takes Debra in Product Management longer to get to the point than it does for me to let a plumber in, and out.
This honestly doesn’t sound like much flexibility at all. If you need time to take ahit - you use your 4 days of PTO. If the company needs time to take a shit on your head - you work late.
Sorry I mean in the new RTO mandate, that is what is now done. Not allowed to WFH for one of those days, to take care of a ~15 minute interruption. Now it costs a PTO day (and the resulting delays of business stuff by an employee off for a day, doing 0 work).
It absolutely is not flexible. And it will harm the business as a result.
Ah okay it makes sense now. Sorry read it wrong.
Yeah they shoot their own foot a bit
If they’re going to be pedantic about every little penny, every second. Well… Two can play that game.
Sorry you’re dealing with that.
Yep. Always comes back down to respect, 2way street, etc.
Indeed, malicious compliance is the game.
