You’re just not gonna budge it doesn’t matter believe what you want. Thousands of queers were imprisoned. Millions lost their cultural and religious identity. The Soviet Union did not have favorable trade deals, they had full scale occupations. We can sit here all day and say who was worse but the bigger thing is NOBODY WAS SAFE so it’s completely irrelevant it isn’t even a light slap vs a death penalty, it is straight up government-funded harassment campaigns everywhere. There is no “lax” when it comes to government repression dude.
And then you look at today and the West has absolutely come out far ahead for the LGBTQIA+ community by a long shot because it actually was better in the West.
As for comparing post-socialist countries to contemporary capitalist countries, you are not making an honest comparison of socialism to capitalism.
I don’t have to because fortunately human rights don’t apply directly to those structures, they’re different across each nation that embraces those ideals. Socialists governments want to pretend they champion for human rights but they don’t if anyone is oppressed, they’re just choosing which demographics to support which is exactly how the rest of the world does it too. You’re being completely disingenuous trying to frame it as a this or that argument, there are not two sides to human rights.
But you’re not interested in being fair, you just want the soviet union to be some rainbow paradise or something when it was not. It constricted so hard on the queer community that the identity was completely shadowed and still to this day is goes largely unidentified and unrecorded except for a few like Gennady Trifonov who barely managed to get his story out. Whatever man.
The claim I gave was that the Soviet Union was historically progressive compared to peer capitalist countries. I never said they were progressive compared to modern western countries when it comes to queer rights, and when it comes to women’s rights, worker’s rights, and more, the Soviet Union was more progressive than the US is today. You are shifting the goalpost to the idea that I said the Soviet Union was flawless even by modern standards, which I never said.
Further, you again try to draw a direct line from a socialist federation of countries to the horrendously reactionary states that replaced them. There is no material basis for this, otherwise the Tsarist system would have continued culturally into the Soviet system. They clearly did not, the Soviet Union was enormously progressive compared to the Tsarist system, just like the modern reactionary states are far more reactionary than the Soviet Union was.
Human rights were also quite strong in the USSR, especially compared to capitalist countries.
This is what you said. You’re having ESPECIALLY do a lot of leg work in that sentence. They really weren’t strong at all which is evident in the culture today. The actual sentence should be:
Human rights were existent in the USSR that capitalist countries hadn’t embraced, and vice versa.
And my point to this is how these are viewed today. In post soviet countries LGBTIA+ is completely repressed, it is literally dangerous to be queer in some places not even openly queer, just queer. Racism runs rampant. Cultures are completely broken from these actions. Which is why I bring up looking at today because Cause and Effect is real and it is how historians help understand the evolution of a culture. If the Soviet Union had such progressive stances they’d have impacted today’s culture, and in many ways they do not. Abuse against women is still rampant with even less support from the government than it had before, LGBTQIA+ individuals are in extreme danger in some of these post soviet countries. It just doesn’t add up and I don’t understand why you want to defend that so aggressively that you won’t even budge or support those truths.
And my point to this is how these are viewed today. In post soviet countries LGBTIA+ is completely repressed, it is literally dangerous to be queer in some places not even openly queer, just queer.
lol, lmao even
How is a state that is now capitalist and reactionary the fault of USSR? This happened because of the absence of it! Do you liberals not have object permanence??
Nobody said the USSR shifted to be pro-queer. What was stated was that the USSR was consistently less anti-queer than the west, which is thanks to their overall higher levels of social progressivism. You either misread unintentionally, or are deliberately taking a bad-faith stance. I like to think it’s the former, but only you can answer that.
Beautiful we’ve come full circle to exactly what the point is.
Government doctrine vs cultural norms. It doesn’t matter what the government says, it matters what the culture does. Half of what the USSR and communists claimed to stand for, they did not which is evident in their actions - anti-colonialism/engages in colonialism, pro women’s rights/women still lack representation and feminism repressed, pro worker’s rights/equal exploitation for all.
So maybe it doesn’t matter what the government says, maybe we have to analyze the culture and where it ended up today to see the changes and the impact of that change.
And thousands were imprisoned for “pederasty” see: homosexuality into work camps and their stories completely repressed because information control was a massive tenet of the Sovier Union. While today, everyone knows of Alan Turing’s story and he is championed as a hero in the west for what he did because the west did in fact have plenty more freedoms and were much more progressive in many more ways than the soviet union.
Someone else in this thread, maybe you I’m not sure, claimed the west referred to all homosexuals as pedophiles. The Soviet Union did the same. And people today are still acting like they weren’t going after homosexuals, they were only targeting pedophiles which is completely untrue.
Using modern day culture in reactionary states as evidence for human rights in entirely different socialist states is, as I already said, horrendously wrong. Again, social rights dramatically expanded compared to Tsardom, and dramatically shrank after the dissolution of socialism. The idea that the modern reaction is evidence of a lack of human rights in an entirely different socioeconomic system lends itself more to biological determinism than to a materialist analysis.
Further, you are again stating that you do not care about placing your analysis within historical context. You deem the present to be the bar to judge against, despite the fact that even the most progressive states today will be considered horribly reactionary in the future. This is why I stressed the importance of comparing to contemporary peers, because I am indisputably correct in that statement.
You are trying to argue 2 falsehoods:
There is no meaningful change in the human rights in society when the entire social form reverses.
The Soviet Union should be measured against the arbitrary levels of present day human rights, not placed in its historical context.
You don’t have truths to defend, your entire argument rests on believing there to have been no meaningful change in social relations when the move from socialism to capitalism happened, and that these changes could be compared to modern capitalist countries.
I did not make the argument that modern Russia is more socially progressive than the modern US. I made the argument that the historical Soviet Union was more socially progressive than the historical west, which is indisputably true. You cannot argue with my actual claim, so you have to move the goalpost.
It feels like you are struggling to understand historical events and entities as parts of historical processes. Yes the USSR did stuff we look back at and go, wow that was fucked up huh. That’s to be expected as we have historically progressed from the point they were at. The USSR wasn’t gonna undo centuries of social conditioning in a decade, that was not feasible. You can’t thanos snap homophobia from existence by royal decree. I would have loved if the Soviet Union spawned into existence with all the values I have today but it didn’t. It was birthed with all the prejudices of working people in Czarist Russia and had to eat away at them over time. Not only this, it came about in a world of prejudices and was consistently surrounded by them. They weren’t going to have an ideological epiphany that severely broke from their tradition and world culture for no reason.
You’re just not gonna budge it doesn’t matter believe what you want. Thousands of queers were imprisoned. Millions lost their cultural and religious identity. The Soviet Union did not have favorable trade deals, they had full scale occupations. We can sit here all day and say who was worse but the bigger thing is NOBODY WAS SAFE so it’s completely irrelevant it isn’t even a light slap vs a death penalty, it is straight up government-funded harassment campaigns everywhere. There is no “lax” when it comes to government repression dude.
And then you look at today and the West has absolutely come out far ahead for the LGBTQIA+ community by a long shot because it actually was better in the West.
I don’t have to because fortunately human rights don’t apply directly to those structures, they’re different across each nation that embraces those ideals. Socialists governments want to pretend they champion for human rights but they don’t if anyone is oppressed, they’re just choosing which demographics to support which is exactly how the rest of the world does it too. You’re being completely disingenuous trying to frame it as a this or that argument, there are not two sides to human rights.
But you’re not interested in being fair, you just want the soviet union to be some rainbow paradise or something when it was not. It constricted so hard on the queer community that the identity was completely shadowed and still to this day is goes largely unidentified and unrecorded except for a few like Gennady Trifonov who barely managed to get his story out. Whatever man.
The claim I gave was that the Soviet Union was historically progressive compared to peer capitalist countries. I never said they were progressive compared to modern western countries when it comes to queer rights, and when it comes to women’s rights, worker’s rights, and more, the Soviet Union was more progressive than the US is today. You are shifting the goalpost to the idea that I said the Soviet Union was flawless even by modern standards, which I never said.
Further, you again try to draw a direct line from a socialist federation of countries to the horrendously reactionary states that replaced them. There is no material basis for this, otherwise the Tsarist system would have continued culturally into the Soviet system. They clearly did not, the Soviet Union was enormously progressive compared to the Tsarist system, just like the modern reactionary states are far more reactionary than the Soviet Union was.
You have no leg to stand on.
This is what you said. You’re having ESPECIALLY do a lot of leg work in that sentence. They really weren’t strong at all which is evident in the culture today. The actual sentence should be:
And my point to this is how these are viewed today. In post soviet countries LGBTIA+ is completely repressed, it is literally dangerous to be queer in some places not even openly queer, just queer. Racism runs rampant. Cultures are completely broken from these actions. Which is why I bring up looking at today because Cause and Effect is real and it is how historians help understand the evolution of a culture. If the Soviet Union had such progressive stances they’d have impacted today’s culture, and in many ways they do not. Abuse against women is still rampant with even less support from the government than it had before, LGBTQIA+ individuals are in extreme danger in some of these post soviet countries. It just doesn’t add up and I don’t understand why you want to defend that so aggressively that you won’t even budge or support those truths.
lol, lmao even
How is a state that is now capitalist and reactionary the fault of USSR? This happened because of the absence of it! Do you liberals not have object permanence??
Because there was never a shift ever to be pro-queer. That is a complete lie many people in this thread are trying to push.
Okay.
Nobody said the USSR shifted to be pro-queer. What was stated was that the USSR was consistently less anti-queer than the west, which is thanks to their overall higher levels of social progressivism. You either misread unintentionally, or are deliberately taking a bad-faith stance. I like to think it’s the former, but only you can answer that.
Denmark and Sweden both completely decriminalized same-sex marriages before WWII even ended. So that’s just not true.
Sweden still considered Homosexuality as a mental illness and was a country that practiced eugenics far into the 70s
Beautiful we’ve come full circle to exactly what the point is.
Government doctrine vs cultural norms. It doesn’t matter what the government says, it matters what the culture does. Half of what the USSR and communists claimed to stand for, they did not which is evident in their actions - anti-colonialism/engages in colonialism, pro women’s rights/women still lack representation and feminism repressed, pro worker’s rights/equal exploitation for all.
So maybe it doesn’t matter what the government says, maybe we have to analyze the culture and where it ended up today to see the changes and the impact of that change.
Meanwhile Alan Turing was castrated and driven to suicide. I said consistently, not permanently and in all cases.
And thousands were imprisoned for “pederasty” see: homosexuality into work camps and their stories completely repressed because information control was a massive tenet of the Sovier Union. While today, everyone knows of Alan Turing’s story and he is championed as a hero in the west for what he did because the west did in fact have plenty more freedoms and were much more progressive in many more ways than the soviet union.
Someone else in this thread, maybe you I’m not sure, claimed the west referred to all homosexuals as pedophiles. The Soviet Union did the same. And people today are still acting like they weren’t going after homosexuals, they were only targeting pedophiles which is completely untrue.
Using modern day culture in reactionary states as evidence for human rights in entirely different socialist states is, as I already said, horrendously wrong. Again, social rights dramatically expanded compared to Tsardom, and dramatically shrank after the dissolution of socialism. The idea that the modern reaction is evidence of a lack of human rights in an entirely different socioeconomic system lends itself more to biological determinism than to a materialist analysis.
Further, you are again stating that you do not care about placing your analysis within historical context. You deem the present to be the bar to judge against, despite the fact that even the most progressive states today will be considered horribly reactionary in the future. This is why I stressed the importance of comparing to contemporary peers, because I am indisputably correct in that statement.
You are trying to argue 2 falsehoods:
There is no meaningful change in the human rights in society when the entire social form reverses.
The Soviet Union should be measured against the arbitrary levels of present day human rights, not placed in its historical context.
You don’t have truths to defend, your entire argument rests on believing there to have been no meaningful change in social relations when the move from socialism to capitalism happened, and that these changes could be compared to modern capitalist countries.
I did not make the argument that modern Russia is more socially progressive than the modern US. I made the argument that the historical Soviet Union was more socially progressive than the historical west, which is indisputably true. You cannot argue with my actual claim, so you have to move the goalpost.
It feels like you are struggling to understand historical events and entities as parts of historical processes. Yes the USSR did stuff we look back at and go, wow that was fucked up huh. That’s to be expected as we have historically progressed from the point they were at. The USSR wasn’t gonna undo centuries of social conditioning in a decade, that was not feasible. You can’t thanos snap homophobia from existence by royal decree. I would have loved if the Soviet Union spawned into existence with all the values I have today but it didn’t. It was birthed with all the prejudices of working people in Czarist Russia and had to eat away at them over time. Not only this, it came about in a world of prejudices and was consistently surrounded by them. They weren’t going to have an ideological epiphany that severely broke from their tradition and world culture for no reason.
You’re doing historical anachronism