I think it was a fairly reasonable conclusion from your response to this comment:
That isn’t really what people are saying. It’s more that voting cannot bring about socialism, while revolution can, and that therefore treating voting as the primary political outlet for people hampers the organizing efforts needed for revolution.
If you can explain your views better, and what you believe socialists believe, then it would be easier for me to know. I’m sorry if I misrepresented your views, but you aren’t doing your views any favors with the endless strawmen.
First of all, that’s not an apology. “Sorry I lied about your position you’re just saying it so badly I lept to a conclusion so it’s really your fault” isn’t an apology, it’s a backhanded accusation.
And you’re not going to quote my response?
We’ve had this argument before and you haven’t convinced me this is true, especially with more immediate political concerns.
I’ve also talked with people who literally are against voting so your statement does not speak for everyone.
I dared to say that we’ve talked before and that you didn’t convince me, so you assume my position is “don’t organize only vote?”
What kind of binary thinking is that? “Oh hey this guy said voting isn’t entirely useless so he must hate the idea of doing anything else”
And you said I’m the one who is making straw men?!
We’ve talked before, and even in this conversation, I said that people need to organize, start a revolution, help out locally, yada yada, you know, the same thing you want and advocate for… As well as take some time out of their afternoon to do the minimal effort for damage control via voting.
If you think the revolution is so weak that doing that will end it, then you don’t believe in the revolution as much as I do.
So why don’t I think your comment is true?
Because voting, right now, is the primary political outlet people have. It’s the one people have access to and just about everyone can do. Secondarily you have people running for office, but that gets less accessible the higher up the chain you go for average people. The way the system is, as it is now, voting is the primary political outlet.
Will voting get us socialism? Probably not, there’s a lot of old guard in there. Hypothetically if everyone voted in every socialist they could rewrite the rules but that’s unlikely to happen.
But we already talked about getting people in office who will do less harm in the interim, people who would not stand in the way of a socialist revolution, or sympathetic to it. As I recall that was either not good enough or you thought that would make people just drop out of the revolution.
But whatever, you don’t want to listen and are going to make up what my position is? Have fun arguing with yourself, don’t get too much straw in your knuckles. I’m sure you’ll get loads of people to join up with you that way.
Don’t act so pompous, it’s on you to selectively ignore points being made and misinterpreting the rest. You’re not owed any apologies for acting like an ass.
I’m not misinterpreting a thing, I’ve made my stance to this person very clear in the past and they’ve completely ignored it, and are now just straight up ignoring it and saying something completely different. Disagreeing with someone isn’t acting like an ass.
I never lied about your position. I genuinely responded to what I believed your position to be, and invited you to correct me. I will not lie about my own position just to satisfy you.
I never once said your claim was “don’t organize, only vote.” I said you claimed voting to be more effective than organizing in the immediate moment. I asked for you to explain this, then you called me a liar.
Ok, so let’s dissect this position. When you say “organize”, what specifically are you referring to? What are you trying to organize and for what goal?
I am specifically referring to building up a disciplined, educated, united working-class party that can develop cadre, struggle alongside the rest of the working class in union struggles, tenant struggles, political struggles, and educate the masses and agitate among them to connect these struggles to the struggle of the working class itself against capitalists and capitalism itself. No less than this. The goal is to create an organization that is correct, capable, and trusted by the rest of the working classes in the event of crisis, to where the struggle can be taken from the crisis to a revolution to establish socialism.
Each aspect of party-building and labor struggles is a part of organizing. The civil rights movement was won through organizing and struggle, as an example.
Ok Cool, will that goal be achieved by, say, early November?
We both know it won’t.
So the more immediate thing that we can do something about, while we keep doing the organizing you’re talking about, is to try to flip Congress. It’s not going to solve everything, but it will put a bump in the road for the literal Nazis that took over America.
It’s not perfect.
Democrats suck.
The easiest way to put a bump in the road is to vote against Republicans, though, and not voting makes it a lot easier for Republicans to win.
And I’ll repeat this for you, as I’ve told you many times, and apparently you didn’t get it: this is not an either/or situation, I am saying to both vote and organize.
Why funnel people into an imperialist party? When you tell people their primary means of opposition is at the ballot box, they don’t organize. How do you grow a party in opposition to both the DNC and GOP while propping up the DNC? This isn’t even extending to what you personally choose to do, in secret, if genocide and imperialism aren’t hard red lines for you and voting for the DNC sits with you morally. I am talking about the practical process of growing an org.
Do you organize? I don’t mean this in a “I do more than you” kind of way, I mean it in the sense that it seems like you are using voting as an outlet to not organize, because others haven’t built an org big enough for you already yet.
Can you please explain what these “more immediate political concerns” are that voting is more important for than organizing?
I think I’d rather have an apology first if I’m going to do you any favors. You just spat out a lie about me and you’re going to brush it off?
I think it was a fairly reasonable conclusion from your response to this comment:
If you can explain your views better, and what you believe socialists believe, then it would be easier for me to know. I’m sorry if I misrepresented your views, but you aren’t doing your views any favors with the endless strawmen.
First of all, that’s not an apology. “Sorry I lied about your position you’re just saying it so badly I lept to a conclusion so it’s really your fault” isn’t an apology, it’s a backhanded accusation.
And you’re not going to quote my response?
I dared to say that we’ve talked before and that you didn’t convince me, so you assume my position is “don’t organize only vote?”
What kind of binary thinking is that? “Oh hey this guy said voting isn’t entirely useless so he must hate the idea of doing anything else”
And you said I’m the one who is making straw men?!
We’ve talked before, and even in this conversation, I said that people need to organize, start a revolution, help out locally, yada yada, you know, the same thing you want and advocate for… As well as take some time out of their afternoon to do the minimal effort for damage control via voting.
If you think the revolution is so weak that doing that will end it, then you don’t believe in the revolution as much as I do.
So why don’t I think your comment is true?
Because voting, right now, is the primary political outlet people have. It’s the one people have access to and just about everyone can do. Secondarily you have people running for office, but that gets less accessible the higher up the chain you go for average people. The way the system is, as it is now, voting is the primary political outlet.
Will voting get us socialism? Probably not, there’s a lot of old guard in there. Hypothetically if everyone voted in every socialist they could rewrite the rules but that’s unlikely to happen.
But we already talked about getting people in office who will do less harm in the interim, people who would not stand in the way of a socialist revolution, or sympathetic to it. As I recall that was either not good enough or you thought that would make people just drop out of the revolution.
But whatever, you don’t want to listen and are going to make up what my position is? Have fun arguing with yourself, don’t get too much straw in your knuckles. I’m sure you’ll get loads of people to join up with you that way.
Don’t act so pompous, it’s on you to selectively ignore points being made and misinterpreting the rest. You’re not owed any apologies for acting like an ass.
I’m not misinterpreting a thing, I’ve made my stance to this person very clear in the past and they’ve completely ignored it, and are now just straight up ignoring it and saying something completely different. Disagreeing with someone isn’t acting like an ass.
This is just projection lol
I never lied about your position. I genuinely responded to what I believed your position to be, and invited you to correct me. I will not lie about my own position just to satisfy you.
I never once said your claim was “don’t organize, only vote.” I said you claimed voting to be more effective than organizing in the immediate moment. I asked for you to explain this, then you called me a liar.
Ok, so let’s dissect this position. When you say “organize”, what specifically are you referring to? What are you trying to organize and for what goal?
I am specifically referring to building up a disciplined, educated, united working-class party that can develop cadre, struggle alongside the rest of the working class in union struggles, tenant struggles, political struggles, and educate the masses and agitate among them to connect these struggles to the struggle of the working class itself against capitalists and capitalism itself. No less than this. The goal is to create an organization that is correct, capable, and trusted by the rest of the working classes in the event of crisis, to where the struggle can be taken from the crisis to a revolution to establish socialism.
Each aspect of party-building and labor struggles is a part of organizing. The civil rights movement was won through organizing and struggle, as an example.
Ok Cool, will that goal be achieved by, say, early November?
We both know it won’t.
So the more immediate thing that we can do something about, while we keep doing the organizing you’re talking about, is to try to flip Congress. It’s not going to solve everything, but it will put a bump in the road for the literal Nazis that took over America.
It’s not perfect.
Democrats suck.
The easiest way to put a bump in the road is to vote against Republicans, though, and not voting makes it a lot easier for Republicans to win.
And I’ll repeat this for you, as I’ve told you many times, and apparently you didn’t get it: this is not an either/or situation, I am saying to both vote and organize.
I’m literally on your side and on board.
Why funnel people into an imperialist party? When you tell people their primary means of opposition is at the ballot box, they don’t organize. How do you grow a party in opposition to both the DNC and GOP while propping up the DNC? This isn’t even extending to what you personally choose to do, in secret, if genocide and imperialism aren’t hard red lines for you and voting for the DNC sits with you morally. I am talking about the practical process of growing an org.
Do you organize? I don’t mean this in a “I do more than you” kind of way, I mean it in the sense that it seems like you are using voting as an outlet to not organize, because others haven’t built an org big enough for you already yet.