I do not think it is cliquey to say Venezuela was AES which is coming to an end because of structural failures to secure a DOTP and because Delcy chooses not to fight because she does not wish to end up like Maduro.
The reality of what is occurring here is that Maduro was willing to die for keeping socialism and Delcy is not.
Venuzuelans aren’t your sacrificial lambs to meet your socialism-martyr-test especially when you got jack all to show for it on your domestic turf
Are the people in Britain my sacrificial lambs then since I reside here? Or the people of the Czech Republic for my ethnicity? Should I stop calling for and pushing revolution here? Is it only Britain that I am allowed to speak on? Seems like a nationalist argument.
If never calling for anyone to risk themselves is your position then surely I should also stop calling and pushing for it here? People will die if revolution happens. Who am I to say anyone should fight anywhere? Each individual should decide for themselves?
Or should I stop being an individualist and hold the position that sacrifice for the class is a necessary part of everything we are doing? And that the proletarian class holds far greater importance than any of us as individuals anywhere in the world?
Would you have made all of these same arguments about the end of the USSR? How about the end of all the african communist states that quickly reformed after the USSR fell? Were they doing the right thing or should they have fought to maintain and keep their freedom like the DPRK and Cuba?
Are the people in Britain my sacrificial lambs then since I reside here? Or the people of the Czech Republic for my ethnicity? Should I stop calling for and pushing revolution here? Is it only Britain that I am allowed to speak on? Seems like a nationalist argument.
If never calling for anyone to risk themselves is your position then surely I should also stop calling and pushing for it here? People will die if revolution happens. Who am I to say anyone should fight anywhere? Each individual should decide for themselves?
I don’t think you’re ignorant, to not know the difference between a strategy balancing risks and suicidal adventurism. I think you’re being malicious in an attempt to score internet points which is why you keep building up strawmen and even in attacking the strawmen you come off deeply bigoted. Be a better human being.
I’m not being malicious at all. You don’t want to answer any question I give you so you’re avoiding it and reverting to personal attacks. You are inconsistent in your views and principles. You do not apply them evenly and by highlighting that to you it has created a great amount of discomfort that you’re trying to avoid addressing.
Calling me a bigot when you just received all the information you needed to understand i’m an ethnic minority that receives racism daily in the country I reside in while saying “be a better human being” is fun though, gave me a chuckle.
I’m not being malicious at all. You don’t want to answer any question I give you so you’re avoiding it and reverting to personal attacks. You are inconsistent in your views and principles. You do not apply them evenly and by highlighting that to you it has created a great amount of discomfort that you’re trying to avoid addressing.
You keep setting up strawmen and to those strawmen you ask the questions. When I explain those aren’t the positions held you move on to the next strawman and repeat. It’s either malice, ignorance or both.
Then you have the tenacity after all that bad faith to cry your questions weren’t answered. I think you could be better and I would like to remind you that you chose to do this by starting with your drive-by commenting “coping”. You don’t get to claim any moral high ground now.
Calling me a bigot when you just received all the information you needed to understand i’m an ethnic minority that receives racism daily in the country I reside in while saying “be a better human being” is fun though, gave me a chuckle.
You have implicitly conceded that you haven’t proposed anything of substance that Venuzuela should do, having been held at gunpoint, that you expect to them die because you have romanticised what being an anti-imperialsit is. This bigotry, the expectation that Venuzueleans should die en-masse for your purity test, that that their bodies are cannon fodder for an idealist conception of resistance, reflects your class as a Westerner on the global stage.
Immigrants to western nations holding reactionary views despite discrimination against them personally is nothing new. It is partly how western hegemony works. We have latams in the US doubling down on their support on US imperialism while ICE is kidnapping and killing folks from south of the US border. We have in the UK politicians of African, West-Indies and Indian subcontinent origin, the folks whose peoples have most violently discriminated and butchered - from the victorian holocausts onwards- defending England as civil society engages in on-going pogroms, and the state arms a genocide.
Consciousness doesn’t make the social being, the social being makes the consciousness.
Going back to DR. I failed to see how her actions don’t look too different from someone who has been asked to make concessions under threat of torture and death of Maduro, and under threat of mass killing of Venuzuela.
My position, crudely, is that if Lenin had to do Brest- Litovsk, from a better position than Venuzuela is in now, that we should consider what it would take to survive under such dangerous circumstances. We have to consider then why when we won’t consider the gravity here. We have to consider what relative privileges we have to be shielded of the consequences of such perspectives.
You have as much information as I do (ie not much at all) on what’s really going on and latam society is clearly divided as we are on what’s going on but we are meant to be historical materialists here; one has to actually bring something to the table.
You have implicitly conceded that you haven’t proposed anything of substance that Venuzuela should do, having been held at gunpoint, that you expect to them die because you have romanticised what being an anti-imperialsit is. This bigotry, the expectation that Venuzueleans should die en-masse for your purity test, that that their bodies are cannon fodder for an idealist conception of resistance, reflects your class as a Westerner on the global stage.
No I haven’t? I’ve told you what Venezuela should do. Exactly what Maduro was doing. Not capitulating to the US. They should do it while keeping the leadership in a better place than a house with 20 guards.
Instead what they’re doing is capitulating to what the US wants via incremental salami slicing steps over time so as not to cause an enormous backlash that gets out of control politically. All the while you sit here and say “Yes that is good they need to do that because the alternative is what happened to Maduro”. You’re just a coward frankly, and so is she, and so are whatever faction she holds that supports her cowardice.
Immigrants to western nations holding reactionary views despite discrimination against them personally is nothing new.
Oh piss off. Now you’re assuming I’m a migrant. Can you stop making fucking assumptions about who and what other people are unless they explicitly tell you?
I was going to work my way through this and respond in line to every point but I’m really emotionally done with this shit. You’re just emotionally exhausting to talk to. This conversation has achieved nothing but making me think lesser of lemmygrad tbh.
Oh piss off. Now you’re assuming I’m a migrant. Can you stop making fucking assumptions about who and what other people are unless they explicitly tell you?
Lol! I just want to get this straight. You said:
Calling me a bigot when you just received all the information you needed to understand i’m an ethnic minority that receives racism daily
For which I explained immigrants (to state the obvious from which ethnic minorities descend from in a non-settler-colonial state) can hold reactionary views as they integrate into the western project. And you get offended for the perception of being called a migrant!
You’re way worse than I thought.
I have a sneaking suspicion that you are lashing out because you thought you could do left-liberal oppression olympics, only then to come across even more reactionary than you initially let on.
You’re just a coward frankly, and so is she, and so are whatever faction she holds that supports her cowardice.
There is no bravery in either of our positions; we are both just armchair analysts here. You trying to claim some moral high ground is frankly pathetic and it would be laughable if it weren’t for the racism.
I was going to work my way through this and respond in line to every point but I’m really emotionally done with this shit. You’re just emotionally exhausting to talk to. This conversation has achieved nothing but making me think lesser of lemmygrad tbh.
At this point, I couldn’t give a flying monkeys whether you consider this conversation representative of lemmygrad or not, and whatever parasocial stakes you decided to plant your identity as. You give the impression that for you marxism is an online vibe.
I already told you I’m done with you, why are you writing walls of text I won’t read? You’re wasting your own time and annoying me with notifications. The other dude that I’ve been talking to is a better person so I’m chill and will probably just keep talking with him. Goodbye.
Venuzuelans aren’t your sacrificial lambs to meet your socialism-martyr-test especially when you got jack all to show for it on your domestic turf
Are the people in Britain my sacrificial lambs then since I reside here? Or the people of the Czech Republic for my ethnicity? Should I stop calling for and pushing revolution here? Is it only Britain that I am allowed to speak on? Seems like a nationalist argument.
If never calling for anyone to risk themselves is your position then surely I should also stop calling and pushing for it here? People will die if revolution happens. Who am I to say anyone should fight anywhere? Each individual should decide for themselves?
Or should I stop being an individualist and hold the position that sacrifice for the class is a necessary part of everything we are doing? And that the proletarian class holds far greater importance than any of us as individuals anywhere in the world?
Would you have made all of these same arguments about the end of the USSR? How about the end of all the african communist states that quickly reformed after the USSR fell? Were they doing the right thing or should they have fought to maintain and keep their freedom like the DPRK and Cuba?
I don’t think you’re ignorant, to not know the difference between a strategy balancing risks and suicidal adventurism. I think you’re being malicious in an attempt to score internet points which is why you keep building up strawmen and even in attacking the strawmen you come off deeply bigoted. Be a better human being.
I’m not being malicious at all. You don’t want to answer any question I give you so you’re avoiding it and reverting to personal attacks. You are inconsistent in your views and principles. You do not apply them evenly and by highlighting that to you it has created a great amount of discomfort that you’re trying to avoid addressing.
Calling me a bigot when you just received all the information you needed to understand i’m an ethnic minority that receives racism daily in the country I reside in while saying “be a better human being” is fun though, gave me a chuckle.
You keep setting up strawmen and to those strawmen you ask the questions. When I explain those aren’t the positions held you move on to the next strawman and repeat. It’s either malice, ignorance or both.
Then you have the tenacity after all that bad faith to cry your questions weren’t answered. I think you could be better and I would like to remind you that you chose to do this by starting with your drive-by commenting “coping”. You don’t get to claim any moral high ground now.
You have implicitly conceded that you haven’t proposed anything of substance that Venuzuela should do, having been held at gunpoint, that you expect to them die because you have romanticised what being an anti-imperialsit is. This bigotry, the expectation that Venuzueleans should die en-masse for your purity test, that that their bodies are cannon fodder for an idealist conception of resistance, reflects your class as a Westerner on the global stage.
Immigrants to western nations holding reactionary views despite discrimination against them personally is nothing new. It is partly how western hegemony works. We have latams in the US doubling down on their support on US imperialism while ICE is kidnapping and killing folks from south of the US border. We have in the UK politicians of African, West-Indies and Indian subcontinent origin, the folks whose peoples have most violently discriminated and butchered - from the victorian holocausts onwards- defending England as civil society engages in on-going pogroms, and the state arms a genocide.
Consciousness doesn’t make the social being, the social being makes the consciousness.
Going back to DR. I failed to see how her actions don’t look too different from someone who has been asked to make concessions under threat of torture and death of Maduro, and under threat of mass killing of Venuzuela.
My position, crudely, is that if Lenin had to do Brest- Litovsk, from a better position than Venuzuela is in now, that we should consider what it would take to survive under such dangerous circumstances. We have to consider then why when we won’t consider the gravity here. We have to consider what relative privileges we have to be shielded of the consequences of such perspectives.
You have as much information as I do (ie not much at all) on what’s really going on and latam society is clearly divided as we are on what’s going on but we are meant to be historical materialists here; one has to actually bring something to the table.
No I haven’t? I’ve told you what Venezuela should do. Exactly what Maduro was doing. Not capitulating to the US. They should do it while keeping the leadership in a better place than a house with 20 guards.
Instead what they’re doing is capitulating to what the US wants via incremental salami slicing steps over time so as not to cause an enormous backlash that gets out of control politically. All the while you sit here and say “Yes that is good they need to do that because the alternative is what happened to Maduro”. You’re just a coward frankly, and so is she, and so are whatever faction she holds that supports her cowardice.
Oh piss off. Now you’re assuming I’m a migrant. Can you stop making fucking assumptions about who and what other people are unless they explicitly tell you?
I was going to work my way through this and respond in line to every point but I’m really emotionally done with this shit. You’re just emotionally exhausting to talk to. This conversation has achieved nothing but making me think lesser of lemmygrad tbh.
Lol! I just want to get this straight. You said:
For which I explained immigrants (to state the obvious from which ethnic minorities descend from in a non-settler-colonial state) can hold reactionary views as they integrate into the western project. And you get offended for the perception of being called a migrant!
You’re way worse than I thought.
I have a sneaking suspicion that you are lashing out because you thought you could do left-liberal oppression olympics, only then to come across even more reactionary than you initially let on.
There is no bravery in either of our positions; we are both just armchair analysts here. You trying to claim some moral high ground is frankly pathetic and it would be laughable if it weren’t for the racism.
At this point, I couldn’t give a flying monkeys whether you consider this conversation representative of lemmygrad or not, and whatever parasocial stakes you decided to plant your identity as. You give the impression that for you marxism is an online vibe.
Get some therapy.
Guess the whole PSL should “get some therapy” too huh?
https://liberationnews.org/venezuelas-reorientation-to-imperialism-imperils-the-gains-of-its-revolution/
I already told you I’m done with you, why are you writing walls of text I won’t read? You’re wasting your own time and annoying me with notifications. The other dude that I’ve been talking to is a better person so I’m chill and will probably just keep talking with him. Goodbye.