Lots of people in the comments are failing to see the issue with this, so allow me to illustrate. Fair warning, this will not be an easy read.
So let’s imagine you really hate trans people, gay people, and liberals. Unfortunately for you, none of these are crimes (yet), so you can’t just go around assaulting and killing these people indiscriminately, as much as you’d like to. So what are you going to do?
Well, the best hate campaigns start with a shared enemy, and nobody is more hated than a child predator. Best of all, you can do pretty much whatever you want to them with no recourse. What are they going to do, call the police? Nobody is going to speak out against what you’re doing, because if they do, you can just say that if they don’t support you, then they must be defending child predators!
But maybe that’s not enough for you. No, you want to make sure that you can target anyone who disagrees with you. Well good news, because you can just join a group of people who believe that anyone who dislikes Donald Trump is a deep state pedophile. You don’t even need evidence anymore, and there’s a good chance the cops will be on your side! Happy hunting!
Seriously though, this vigilante “justice” should not be celebrated. Yes, we need to take child predators off the streets, but there is a process for that. Denying anyone due process opens the door to denying it to everyone.
Yeah I believe the next step in this process is to make the easy jump into hunting all those people expressing ‘Pedo apologia’. Half this thread suddenly is fair game to ‘investigate.’
These type of discussions remind me of a case in Minnesota where a neighbor framed their neighbor by hacking their wifi and planting child pornography.
I wish that article had more information on how the framed person proved their innocence. It’s probably boring but he must have felt like he was taking crazy pills when he was framed.
“Barry Ardolf, a Minnesota hacker prosecutors described as a ‘depraved criminal,’ has been handed an 18-year prison term for unleashing a vendetta of cyberterror that turned his neighbors’ lives into a living nightmare. Ardolf hacked into his next-door neighbors’ Wi-Fi network and used it to try and frame them for child pornography, sexual harassment, various kinds of professional misconduct, and to send threatening e-mail to politicians, including Vice President Joe Biden. The bizarre tale began in 2009 when Matt and Bethany Kostolnik moved into the house next door to Ardolf. On their first day at their new home, the Kostolnik’s then-4-year-old son wandered near Ardolf’s house. While carrying him back next door, Ardolf allegedly kissed the boy on the lips. ‘We’ve just moved next door to a pedophile,’ Mrs. Kostolnik told her husband. The couple reported Ardolf to the police, angering their creepy new neighbor (PDF). ‘I decided to “get even” by launching computer attacks against him,’ said Ardolf, who downloaded Wi-Fi hacking software and spent two weeks cracking the Kostolnik’s WEP encryption. Then he used their own Wi-Fi network to create a fake MySpace page for the husband, where he posted a picture of a pubescent girl having sex with two young boys. Ardolf turned down a 2-year plea agreement last year to charges related to the Biden e-mail. After that, the authorities piled on more charges, including identity theft and two kiddie-porn accusations carrying lifetime sex-offender registration requirements.”
It was also an episode of CSI Miami, where a dude targeted “pedo” by planting a virus that quickly put CPnon the computer. Since the original guy did this he was arrested for Distribution of CP and was responsible for the murder by inciting a mod to attack him. The pedo that got unintentionally sent CP was then targeted by a mob, and murdered.
I’d say it’s also a problem that the sort of people who use the Internet to find people to beat up are idiots, so even if they aren’t going out of their way to victimize minorities, odds are they’ll just beat up some random person.
Don’t they already do that? Them getting attacked isn’t getting in a court conviction anytime soon, because it will be disregarded evidence, and it was done with prejudice too
Do people read this and fail to realize that the “calling everyone I disagree with is a Nazi” rhetoric is the exact same thing?
Like how Elon can do a full Nazi salute multiple times but then throw out some rhetoric about how “they call everyone Nazis” and everyone just buys it?
The Nazis were fascists that looked to create a 1000 year reich and believed the destiny was to birth the master race. Trump et al are not doing this which means they are a different kind of fascist than Nazis. That doesn’t make it better much like being shot with a .308 instead of a .44 caliber round isn’t “better” it just makes it a different kind of harm.
"Ok? How does that change my statement that they are a different kind of fascist? Keep in mind my point is entirely focused on the ideology part of the political ideology whereas you are talking about a salute. How does an arm motion change the policy goals which aren’t the same as what Nazis support? What policy goal can you derive from an arm motion to begin with?
They are still evil they are just a different kind of evil. Not all fascists are nazis. The fact that one guy did a nazi salute twice doesn’t change project 2025 into something that Nazis would support."
The nazi’s did such a good job of distinguishing themselves they created their own (colloquial) taxonomic branch.
So [nazi] could be considered a parent grouping of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party and also potentially a parent grouping for the republicans.
I think they key here is separating the nazi party from the [nazi] category
As you pointed out all [nazi]'s are [fascist]'s but not all [fascist]'s are [nazi]'s
National Socialist German Workers’ Party were [nazi]'s
The American Republican Party are subjectively showing enough similarities (both in type and progression) that they get the provisional label of [nazi] as it’s the closest existing definition.
Might turn out that they don’t quite fall in the same branch, might turn out they do. Until then [nazi] is an easy shortcut for describing the types of behaviour displayed.
Even if they were just a direct descendent ( taxonomically ) rather than a sibling of the original nazi party there would still be an argument to claim they were nazi’s
Like :
animal -> mammal -> cat
nazi -> nazi party -> republican
Come back in a few years and you’ll probably get your definitive answer either way.
You don’t have to agree with any of that of course, but it does demonstrate how someone might have an opposing opinion to your own.
Ok? How does that change my statement that they are a different kind of fascist? Keep in mind my point is entirely focused on the ideology part of the political ideology whereas you are talking about a salute. How does an arm motion change the policy goals which aren’t the same as what Nazis support? What policy goal can you derive from an arm motion to begin with?
They are still evil they are just a different kind of evil. Not all fascists are nazis. The fact that one guy did a nazi salute twice doesn’t change project 2025,
That’s an extremely narrow point that isn’t worth bothering with, because nobody is confused about what you mean when you call them “nazis”.
Also it’s not one guy doing a zeig heil, it’s become a trend amongst them now. They have invited the comparison openly, and anybody getting all pissy about “you just call everything you don’t like nazi” is just a crybully who’s deliberately wasting your time. At this point anybody turned off of your cause by your use of the word “nazi” isn’t your ally in the first place.
Like sure they’re not exactly the same as the NSDAP, but the category still applies, and it’s not worth anybody’s time splitting hairs over the exact nature of the type of fascism they have, because “nazi” does the job and again, nobody is confused by it, because the original nazis are all resting in piss.
Do you have any argument as to why this matters, in any way, at all?
Do you have any argument as to why this matters, in any way, at all?
the majority of the population doesn’t identify this as being nazism. If you are looking to get more people backing your cause you cannot alienate them by appearing to be reactionary or uneducated.
So your argument rests not on truth but on populism.
Even if you’re right in your wholly unsubstantiated claim, the way to get more people on your side is by persuading them, not by capitulating to their ill-informed beliefs. Giving in to their bullshit is how you join their side.
See the problem is people see the word “Nazi” and (for some convenient reason) think people are literally talking about a card carrying member of the NSDAP, which obviously doesn’t exist after 1945.
Substitute “fascist authoritarian” for “Nazi” in more modern contexts and it makes more sense.
Lots of people in the comments are failing to see the issue with this, so allow me to illustrate. Fair warning, this will not be an easy read.
So let’s imagine you really hate trans people, gay people, and liberals. Unfortunately for you, none of these are crimes (yet), so you can’t just go around assaulting and killing these people indiscriminately, as much as you’d like to. So what are you going to do?
Well, the best hate campaigns start with a shared enemy, and nobody is more hated than a child predator. Best of all, you can do pretty much whatever you want to them with no recourse. What are they going to do, call the police? Nobody is going to speak out against what you’re doing, because if they do, you can just say that if they don’t support you, then they must be defending child predators!
Now that we have a precedent for violence, it’s time to expand our scope a bit. Since hunting pedophiles is a-ok, now you just need to label anyone you don’t like a pedophile. You could say gay and trans people are pedophiles and groomers. And again, if anyone opposes you, just call them a groomer too!
But maybe that’s not enough for you. No, you want to make sure that you can target anyone who disagrees with you. Well good news, because you can just join a group of people who believe that anyone who dislikes Donald Trump is a deep state pedophile. You don’t even need evidence anymore, and there’s a good chance the cops will be on your side! Happy hunting!
Seriously though, this vigilante “justice” should not be celebrated. Yes, we need to take child predators off the streets, but there is a process for that. Denying anyone due process opens the door to denying it to everyone.
Yeah I believe the next step in this process is to make the easy jump into hunting all those people expressing ‘Pedo apologia’. Half this thread suddenly is fair game to ‘investigate.’
It’s a bottomless well, really.
These type of discussions remind me of a case in Minnesota where a neighbor framed their neighbor by hacking their wifi and planting child pornography.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-gets-18-yrs-for-wifi-hack-child-porn-frame/
I wish that article had more information on how the framed person proved their innocence. It’s probably boring but he must have felt like he was taking crazy pills when he was framed.
Here is more info:
“Barry Ardolf, a Minnesota hacker prosecutors described as a ‘depraved criminal,’ has been handed an 18-year prison term for unleashing a vendetta of cyberterror that turned his neighbors’ lives into a living nightmare. Ardolf hacked into his next-door neighbors’ Wi-Fi network and used it to try and frame them for child pornography, sexual harassment, various kinds of professional misconduct, and to send threatening e-mail to politicians, including Vice President Joe Biden. The bizarre tale began in 2009 when Matt and Bethany Kostolnik moved into the house next door to Ardolf. On their first day at their new home, the Kostolnik’s then-4-year-old son wandered near Ardolf’s house. While carrying him back next door, Ardolf allegedly kissed the boy on the lips. ‘We’ve just moved next door to a pedophile,’ Mrs. Kostolnik told her husband. The couple reported Ardolf to the police, angering their creepy new neighbor (PDF). ‘I decided to “get even” by launching computer attacks against him,’ said Ardolf, who downloaded Wi-Fi hacking software and spent two weeks cracking the Kostolnik’s WEP encryption. Then he used their own Wi-Fi network to create a fake MySpace page for the husband, where he posted a picture of a pubescent girl having sex with two young boys. Ardolf turned down a 2-year plea agreement last year to charges related to the Biden e-mail. After that, the authorities piled on more charges, including identity theft and two kiddie-porn accusations carrying lifetime sex-offender registration requirements.”
https://it.slashdot.org/story/11/07/13/0445224/the-wi-fi-hacking-neighbor-from-hell
Oh wow, thanks!
It was also an episode of CSI Miami, where a dude targeted “pedo” by planting a virus that quickly put CPnon the computer. Since the original guy did this he was arrested for Distribution of CP and was responsible for the murder by inciting a mod to attack him. The pedo that got unintentionally sent CP was then targeted by a mob, and murdered.
I’d say it’s also a problem that the sort of people who use the Internet to find people to beat up are idiots, so even if they aren’t going out of their way to victimize minorities, odds are they’ll just beat up some random person.
Don’t they already do that? Them getting attacked isn’t getting in a court conviction anytime soon, because it will be disregarded evidence, and it was done with prejudice too
Do people read this and fail to realize that the “calling everyone I disagree with is a Nazi” rhetoric is the exact same thing? Yes, they do
Like how Elon can do a full Nazi salute multiple times but then throw out some rhetoric about how “they call everyone Nazis” and everyone just buys it?
Yeah I can see how they’re similar.
And his whole family line supports Nazism
I don’t think that’s true. Half of his kids have disowned him. He has a trans child he says was “killed by wokeness” who hates his guts.
Yeah, got to go up the line of ancestry I guess to find all his nazi supporting family.
Who are you targeting with that message? Because what’s going on with the current US admin is straight out of the nazi playbook.
It feels like you are trying to get validation for your position.
But if you saw where this was going and said it too early, this perspective means you’re responsible for people not taking you seriously now!
The Nazis were fascists that looked to create a 1000 year reich and believed the destiny was to birth the master race. Trump et al are not doing this which means they are a different kind of fascist than Nazis. That doesn’t make it better much like being shot with a .308 instead of a .44 caliber round isn’t “better” it just makes it a different kind of harm.
I’d say that the nazi salute on live tv sealed the deal.
If it looks like a Nazi and squeak like a Nazi, it’s a fucking Nazi.
From my reply to another
"Ok? How does that change my statement that they are a different kind of fascist? Keep in mind my point is entirely focused on the ideology part of the political ideology whereas you are talking about a salute. How does an arm motion change the policy goals which aren’t the same as what Nazis support? What policy goal can you derive from an arm motion to begin with?
They are still evil they are just a different kind of evil. Not all fascists are nazis. The fact that one guy did a nazi salute twice doesn’t change project 2025 into something that Nazis would support."
Taxonomy.
The nazi’s did such a good job of distinguishing themselves they created their own (colloquial) taxonomic branch.
So [nazi] could be considered a parent grouping of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party and also potentially a parent grouping for the republicans.
I think they key here is separating the nazi party from the [nazi] category
As you pointed out all [nazi]'s are [fascist]'s but not all [fascist]'s are [nazi]'s
Might turn out that they don’t quite fall in the same branch, might turn out they do. Until then [nazi] is an easy shortcut for describing the types of behaviour displayed.
Even if they were just a direct descendent ( taxonomically ) rather than a sibling of the original nazi party there would still be an argument to claim they were nazi’s
Like :
Come back in a few years and you’ll probably get your definitive answer either way.
You don’t have to agree with any of that of course, but it does demonstrate how someone might have an opposing opinion to your own.
They are literally zeig-heiling.
Ok? How does that change my statement that they are a different kind of fascist? Keep in mind my point is entirely focused on the ideology part of the political ideology whereas you are talking about a salute. How does an arm motion change the policy goals which aren’t the same as what Nazis support? What policy goal can you derive from an arm motion to begin with?
They are still evil they are just a different kind of evil. Not all fascists are nazis. The fact that one guy did a nazi salute twice doesn’t change project 2025,
That’s an extremely narrow point that isn’t worth bothering with, because nobody is confused about what you mean when you call them “nazis”.
Also it’s not one guy doing a zeig heil, it’s become a trend amongst them now. They have invited the comparison openly, and anybody getting all pissy about “you just call everything you don’t like nazi” is just a crybully who’s deliberately wasting your time. At this point anybody turned off of your cause by your use of the word “nazi” isn’t your ally in the first place.
Like sure they’re not exactly the same as the NSDAP, but the category still applies, and it’s not worth anybody’s time splitting hairs over the exact nature of the type of fascism they have, because “nazi” does the job and again, nobody is confused by it, because the original nazis are all resting in piss.
Do you have any argument as to why this matters, in any way, at all?
the majority of the population doesn’t identify this as being nazism. If you are looking to get more people backing your cause you cannot alienate them by appearing to be reactionary or uneducated.
So your argument rests not on truth but on populism.
Even if you’re right in your wholly unsubstantiated claim, the way to get more people on your side is by persuading them, not by capitulating to their ill-informed beliefs. Giving in to their bullshit is how you join their side.
I would love to know what your media diet is.
That’s a big claim for no citation.
Are you accusing me of being alarmist after I provided sources for the things that are actually going on?
See the problem is people see the word “Nazi” and (for some convenient reason) think people are literally talking about a card carrying member of the NSDAP, which obviously doesn’t exist after 1945.
Substitute “fascist authoritarian” for “Nazi” in more modern contexts and it makes more sense.