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Tommy Siegel | Bluesky
Transcript
A Helpful Guide To Star Wars vs Star Trek
Star Wars
[Image of Han Solo in Tommy’s style]
- Don’t start with the ‘first’ movie, let me tell you where to start
- Looks like ruined farm equipment in space
- In summary: the past was horrible
- JJ Abrams ruined it
Star Trek
[Image of Jean Luc Picard in Tommy’s style]
- Don’t start with the first season, let me tell you where to start
- Looks like a cruise ship in space
- In summary: the future is incredible
- JJ Abrams ruined it
Except that it ignored everything set up in the previous movie, thus causing the next movie to be an absolute mess.
The force awakens basically had that same problem though, effectively undoing everything concluded in return of the Jedi. Granted there’s a time gap but there’s no explanation as to why the former rebels (whatever they were called at that time I forgot) were still such a small force compared to the new big bad (something order?), not to mention why this order exists in the first place, what their motivations were, how they got their numbers and resources, etc. They’re just a galaxy-level threat sprung from thin air. It seems pretty clear to me that JJ just wanted to remake a new hope with as little consideration of the conclusion of return of the Jedi as he could get away with, plot holes be damned. RJ tried to address some of these plot holes but even he doesn’t really attempt to justify the something-order’s existence. If the force awakens was the first star wars movie as a new hope was then it wouldn’t be such a big deal, but coming just a few decades after the return of the Jedi, there ought to be some explanation for how they lost so much progress in that time, preferably in the first act. But nah, it’s just “somehow the empire returned (with cool new branding)” because JJ can’t write a plot to save his life.
This is why I really don’t care for the new through. Episode VII is a funny movie in isolation but as a follow-up to VI it makes zero sense. Says a lot about audiences that they just blindly accept its premise with no questions asked. The rebels are magically the underdogs again guys, nothing that happened in original trilogy matters!
Yeah, there was so much material they could have pulled from the Expanded Universe. The New Republic era, reclaiming territory from the imperial remnants and rebuilding the Jedi Order; the New Jedi Order era, fighting off the Yuuzhan Vong and the Killiks; the Fate of the Jedi era, when the Sith make a comeback; and then there’s the Legacy era after that.
That’s at least 3 or 4 trilogies right there.
Not to mention going back in time to the Old Republic era with its wars against the Sith empires, and the Dawn of the Jedi in the Origins era prior to that.
If they really wanted to milk the franchise, they had plenty of material to work with instead of just saying “nah” and declaring it all non-canonical, only to replace it with slop…
They weren’t. A good portion of them became the New Republic, which was destroyed by Starkiller Base.
They were what remained of the Empire plus new recruits/conscripts taken in the period after the Battle of Endor.
Gotta be honest, though, “the Empire was building a Death Star that can destroy planets in other solar systems and nobody ever talked about it despite the two small ones being big fucking deals” is a really damn weak premise. They could’ve found some other way of making the remnant of the Empire a threat but then they couldn’t have recycled A New Hope as easily.
I mean, the notion that destroying a planet was somehow a massive outlandish threat in a universe where basically everyone has the technology to propel thousands of tons of mass at many times the speed of light always felt pretty fucking stupid in the first place. Every single hyper-drive capable ship in the universe could turn an entire planet to dust in seconds.
Before the 8th movie, it was pretty heavily implied that things in hyperspace didn’t really interact with things in real space. Hence the reason jumping into hyperspace was a way to escape from a fight you weren’t going to win.
Of course, 8th movie showed us that wasn’t the case, and not only can ships in hyperspace ram things in real space, but the results are devastating. Which actually makes the whole Deathstar thing incredibly stupid and not just obsolete, as a Deathstar is nothing but a big ass target for someone to ram a ship into while in hyperspace.
a planet has far more mass than what you saw in VIII, if that’s what you’re referring to
I have no idea what you are referencing by “VIII” but in reality a reasonably dense object the size of an ashtray traveling at a multiple of the speed of light would turn any planet in the solar system into a cloud of dust. So a ship weighing thousands of tons would be overkill as a weapon all by itself.
Star Wars clearly follows maritime logic, not space logic
Yeah if anything the New Order showed a much more realistic outcome of assassinating an Empire’s Emperor.
If an assassination meant the end of an Empire, Rome would not have existed very long
It wasn’t just an assassination though. They defeated their two most powerful leaders; both of their Sith lords, at that. They destroyed their main battlestation and a large chunk of their military leadership along with it, decapitating the rest of their forces.
And it doesn’t end after the battle of Endor. The Empire is defeated, yes. So they celebrate. They begin reconstructing the New Republic and the New Jedi Order. But there’s still an imperial remnant, and wayward warlords throughout the galaxy. So a large chunk of the story following the Original Trilogy is them hunting down and pacifying those imperial remnants.
There could have easily been a trilogy made just from the material that already existed. They didn’t have to try to rewrite the whole thing, and do an ass job of it at that…
Nah, don’t put the blame on ep. IX mess into VIII. It also ignored everything set up on the previous movie, and even if it didn’t, there wouldn’t be any need for it to suck that much.
Now, none of that makes VIII good…
Nothing was “set up” in VII. It was the usual, hollow “mystery box” Abrams always uses. Given what was basically a blank slate, Rian did what he wanted with it, something new, which is something the franchise desperately needed. Exactly what fans say they want, but always shit on even while everyone moans about there not being anything but reboots and rehashes.
Abram’s style works much better in VII than it does in something like Lost or later Fringe. Abram’s is on record saying he is a Star Wars fan. He made a love letter to Star Wars. Whatever flaws it has it still sets tone and implies things about characters. Finn is force sensitive. Kylo can be saved. The main rivals were going to be Kylo and Finn with Rey being something of an Aakin between them. Father, brother, sister style. Snoke was where it was leading. With all three, Kylo, Rey, and Finn finding their own connections in the force.
Was it a lot of rehash? yes, but that only means that it was a parallel to the first movie. It set a familiar tone to take us somewhere new and complex. VIII takes a left turn on all of it and decides to do camp and expectation subversion and ruin any hope of telling a compelling and well-written story.
First, you’re falling for the trap of the mystery box. None of that is in or really even suggested by the movie itself - you’re putting your own interpretation and expectations in to fill in the absence of any given by the door. It’s exactly why Abrams uses it, and why it never pays off.
Second, being a fan of something doesn’t make a director better. If anything, their previous connection is baggage that will need to be managed and avoided to move a forward. In the case of VII, it worked. It was a safe, comforting return to a long running franchise that could lead to something new. IX shows how that usually ends, though - clinging to the old patterns with little to no deviation, culminating in a disappointing outcome. If nothing else, the attempt of VIII to break off into something different is commendable. Personally I think the film is good and its successes get lost in the nitpicking and hysteria of diehard fans that won’t ever be satisfied anyhow.
Agree to disagree. I don’t begrudge VIII as a movie on it’s own. In the theater I had an okay time and unlike the toxic fans I at least grew to appreciate things like Rose, but you can’t consider VIII in a vacuum because it was never meant to be consumed that way. It’s the center piece in a trilogy.
I would argue that the fact that these interpretations can be rendered from the movie alone, means that we aren’t dealing with a true Abrams style mystery box, and that even if we were, the general speculation about them doesn’t leave us scratching our heads wondering about a narrative direction for these characters.
It’s not a polar bear on a tropical island. In the context of the Star Wars universe most of Abram’s choices have implications.
Those Implications where ignored by Johnson. It’s misguided to blame Abrams for trying to leave questions that mirror the original film. If VIII had built on any of it, at all, we likely wouldn’t be having this discussion. We would be talking about how VIII took the threads of familiar from the previous movie and actually made it good.
It’s not on Abrams for Johnson’s narrative left turn. At release The Force Awakens was incredibly well received. It wasn’t until after VIII dropped that people really started to tear into Abrams for not keeping narrative control, and deflecting the blame from Johnson onto Abrams.
I find that outrageous.
Any collaborative story teller worth their salt can draw the through lines for some of these characters and tropes. It’s not on Abrams for choosing to leave the story about space wizards open ended on what is the opening note of a familiar trilogy. The worst thing you could say about the Force Awakens is that it plays too safe. Which, for an opening movie isn’t a problem unless the rest of the trilogy sucks.
I don’t think it would have been perfect if Abrams held the wheel for all three films. It’s the nature of fandom to nitpick and complain, but it at least would have been consistent. This trilogy is a narrative mess and it got that way because of Johnson having no skill as a collaborative story teller and likely little love for Star Wars.
Johnson did to Star Wars what Abrams did to Star Trek.
It’s not, though. That’s my point. Barring Finn being force sensitive, nothing you mention is obvious or supported by anything except your own expectations.
Or if Abrams had the courage to follow through, we would have something that wraps up VII and VIII in something that wasn’t such a cluster fuck. Or maybe it would have all been even worse either way. We won’t ever know. Speculating “If it was better, I would have liked it” isn’t proof of anything.
We can’t blame Rian for “ignoring” plot hooks that weren’t there. What vague questions were asked, he expanded on. For everything else, people were left to create their own expectations like yours that didn’t line up with what he chose to do. There is no outcome that would have left any number of people satisfied that wasn’t even more of a retread.
What an incredibly self-centered statement. To question and even deny someone’s care for something just because it’s not the way you want them to is just callous and cruel. Nobody is obligated to care the same way you do, and Rian obviously cares for the franchise and has said as much, even saying he’d come back for more despite the extreme reaction he’s gotten so far. Nobody puts up with shit like that for something they don’t care about deeply and that should be welcomed and encouraged. Accusations like yours won’t keep a fandom or franchise healthy - it just pushes everyone reasonable away and leaves the bitter, angry leftovers that nobody wants to touch.
I really don’t see it. I’ll reflect on it.
Rian made a fun movie. He did not make a good middle trilogy movie. When taken as the center piece that it is, his choices mirror Abram’s choices with Star Trek. That is, similar and familiar but lacking a deeper understanding of the property. The Star Trek movies are also mostly good. Understanding the deep nuance isn’t needed to make a good movie in a franchise, but it does help inform structure. I flat out refuse to blame Abrams for Rian’s movie. I’ve said way more on this than is needed and obviously we’re not going to agree beyond the fact that the squeals are bad. And that’s fine. I’m not an angry and bitter fan. I’m just profoundly disappointed. like many were.
but I am getting older and I understand that the way I want things to be isn’t how they are. I just won’t be silent about it in the spaces where we’re supposed to have discussion.
random point of fact, I checked out these movies Rotten Tomatoes scores last night and it’s interesting how well regarded they are. So either, there’s corporate thumbs on the voting scales or the general public don’t care as much about these complaints. Either way. My desire to be thorough in my thoughts may have painted me as one of those obsessive fans that rages at people online. That isn’t me. Passionate, yes, but not so much so that I will lash out at people for having different opinions. - maybe my blood sugar is just better balanced atm.