The issue as I understand it is that the words “male” and “female” are adjectives, and when they’re used as nouns it can sound dehumanizing.
A vet or a farmer might talk about their livestock as “males and females,” but people referring to other people that way is not only incorrect usage, but it’s also only ever really used that way by men discussing women as if they’re sex objects.
Yah I got schooled about the usage on a women’s page on Reddit a few years ago. Being a woman and female I didn’t know that I had been using the term female wrong for 40 years prior to that.
Yeah this place is a little better than reddit in terms of nuance and charitable interpretations, but we still have our share of toxic assholes who will deliberately misconstrue anything you say so they can shame you and put you down just to feel smug/superior.
Sometimes it’s not easy to determine what to ignore and what to learn from, but yeah using “female” as a noun is definitely a big no-no these days, even offline.
And honestly, increasingly I’ve started to notice it expanding to include using the term correctly as an adjective, which is annoying, but I’ve had to adjust my language accordingly. Now I say things like “a woman doctor” even though it’s incorrect and sounds awkward, because I’m afraid to say “a female doctor,” lest I be shunned.
Yeah, I see. I did get called out for using it as an adjective, though, which seemed particularly weird.
Generally, my rule of thumb is: if you can say “male” and it isn’t wrong/weird, you should be able to say “female” to the same effect. But practice shows it isn’t true.
I think the issue is evolving a bit as people develop a knee-jerk reaction to hearing “female” and snap to the conclusion “🚩🚩🚩”
It’s a bit annoying and anti-nuance, but what can you do? I’ve started self-censoring by using “woman” as an adjective instead, even though it’s a noun and sounds awkward as an adjective, i.e. “A woman doctor,” “a woman therapist,” “a woman lawyer,” “a woman relative,” etc.
It sounds awkward because it’s incorrect, and that would be the correct way to use the word “female,” but I get super paranoid about that kind of stuff and overthink it because I’ve been shunned and flamed about stupid BS like that before and it isn’t pleasant, especially as someone politically progressive who happens to be a cishetero-passing white male, so it’s like everything I say is constantly under a microscope. And like, I believe in egalitarianism, but stuff like that could get me labeled as a misogynist in a heartbeat. So I try to be aware of it, even if it leaves me tongue-tied at times when I don’t know what fucking words are still okay to use, and I overthink how to phrase something precisely the right way so that nobody accuses me of malice…
someone politically progressive who happens to be a cishetero-passing white male, so it’s like everything I say is constantly under a microscope
Y E S.
An extremely toxic angle to a lot of progressives and especially the discriminated folks is automatically assuming everything to be evil once it comes out of cishet male’s mouth. Like, I get it, quite some people actually are discriminatory, but verifying the person’s intent before lashing out shouldn’t be too hard. Many, many times the person really didn’t mean anything bad.
Sometimes I genuinely wonder how much this toxicity contributes to the development of reactionary right-wing types, and the way they portray the left and progressives as a screaming crowd in search of another scapegoat.
Anyway yeah, I think a lot of us on the left could do better to avoid adding fuel to the caricatures that the right-wing reactionaries portray us as, cause it’s already a dumpster fire as it is.
And seconded. Radicalization targets the vulnerable. When people feel they’re not welcome in any other spaces, they tend to wind up in toxic echo chambers where they get poached by nefarious actors.
Not saying we should welcome everyone with open arms, but if someone’s problem is merely ignorance, that can be remedied. As long as there’s no malice in their intent, we should be willing to reach out a hand or at least give them a path forward, because it will ultimately grow the left’s reach, while minimizing the recruitment pool for right-wing extremists.
I’ve been flamed for talking about this before, but I think it’s too important to ignore.
The issue as I understand it is that the words “male” and “female” are adjectives, and when they’re used as nouns it can sound dehumanizing.
A vet or a farmer might talk about their livestock as “males and females,” but people referring to other people that way is not only incorrect usage, but it’s also only ever really used that way by men discussing women as if they’re sex objects.
“A female therapist/doctor/lawyer/relative” = ✅👍
“That female over there” = ❌👎
Yah I got schooled about the usage on a women’s page on Reddit a few years ago. Being a woman and female I didn’t know that I had been using the term female wrong for 40 years prior to that.
Yeah this place is a little better than reddit in terms of nuance and charitable interpretations, but we still have our share of toxic assholes who will deliberately misconstrue anything you say so they can shame you and put you down just to feel smug/superior.
Sometimes it’s not easy to determine what to ignore and what to learn from, but yeah using “female” as a noun is definitely a big no-no these days, even offline.
And honestly, increasingly I’ve started to notice it expanding to include using the term correctly as an adjective, which is annoying, but I’ve had to adjust my language accordingly. Now I say things like “a woman doctor” even though it’s incorrect and sounds awkward, because I’m afraid to say “a female doctor,” lest I be shunned.
It’s both an adjective and a noun. Most English adjectives can be used as a noun in a pinch, but the connotation may be dodgy.
I’m just passing on what I’ve heard, the way it was explained to me…
Yeah, I see. I did get called out for using it as an adjective, though, which seemed particularly weird.
Generally, my rule of thumb is: if you can say “male” and it isn’t wrong/weird, you should be able to say “female” to the same effect. But practice shows it isn’t true.
I think the issue is evolving a bit as people develop a knee-jerk reaction to hearing “female” and snap to the conclusion “🚩🚩🚩”
It’s a bit annoying and anti-nuance, but what can you do? I’ve started self-censoring by using “woman” as an adjective instead, even though it’s a noun and sounds awkward as an adjective, i.e. “A woman doctor,” “a woman therapist,” “a woman lawyer,” “a woman relative,” etc.
It sounds awkward because it’s incorrect, and that would be the correct way to use the word “female,” but I get super paranoid about that kind of stuff and overthink it because I’ve been shunned and flamed about stupid BS like that before and it isn’t pleasant, especially as someone politically progressive who happens to be a cishetero-passing white male, so it’s like everything I say is constantly under a microscope. And like, I believe in egalitarianism, but stuff like that could get me labeled as a misogynist in a heartbeat. So I try to be aware of it, even if it leaves me tongue-tied at times when I don’t know what fucking words are still okay to use, and I overthink how to phrase something precisely the right way so that nobody accuses me of malice…
Y E S.
An extremely toxic angle to a lot of progressives and especially the discriminated folks is automatically assuming everything to be evil once it comes out of cishet male’s mouth. Like, I get it, quite some people actually are discriminatory, but verifying the person’s intent before lashing out shouldn’t be too hard. Many, many times the person really didn’t mean anything bad.
Sometimes I genuinely wonder how much this toxicity contributes to the development of reactionary right-wing types, and the way they portray the left and progressives as a screaming crowd in search of another scapegoat.
Glad to hear I’m not just crazy.
I am crazy, but not just that.
Anyway yeah, I think a lot of us on the left could do better to avoid adding fuel to the caricatures that the right-wing reactionaries portray us as, cause it’s already a dumpster fire as it is.
And seconded. Radicalization targets the vulnerable. When people feel they’re not welcome in any other spaces, they tend to wind up in toxic echo chambers where they get poached by nefarious actors.
Not saying we should welcome everyone with open arms, but if someone’s problem is merely ignorance, that can be remedied. As long as there’s no malice in their intent, we should be willing to reach out a hand or at least give them a path forward, because it will ultimately grow the left’s reach, while minimizing the recruitment pool for right-wing extremists.
I’ve been flamed for talking about this before, but I think it’s too important to ignore.