cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/46449191
U.S. President Donald Trump said on Saturday Ukraine should agree a deal to end the war with Russia because “Russia is a very big power, and they’re not”
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/46449191
U.S. President Donald Trump said on Saturday Ukraine should agree a deal to end the war with Russia because “Russia is a very big power, and they’re not”
How? What cards do they hold? What can they give in exchange for their land?
For example, Russia can stop the “special operation” if Ukraine gives them the land they want.
Unfortunately, you and I both know that even if Ukraine were to agree to cede some land to Russia, there’s nothing stopping Putin from continuing to sow instability in Ukraine or from still trying to take more of their land. In fact, he has a demonstrated track record of lying about this.
True. Trump, Putin, Xi are not to be trusted but there has to be an end to the war. Ukraine cannot win it, it is clear since day one. There has to be some sort of diplomatic solution once there is a ceasefire.
People in the comments (and West, in general) don’t understand how terrible war is. They think them supporting Ukraine to prolong the inevitable is a good thing. They are killing thousands of people and the outcome is unlikely to change. So many deaths in vain.
A very stupid and naïve argument people make is Putin should just leave Ukraine and the war will be over. Why would he give up a winning game? It is simple solution to a very complex problem, and simple solutions are rarely correct solutions.
Are you stupid or are you paid? „Let them have land” is literally the simplest most retarded solution, yet you dare use that descriptor against something else.
Ceding land to Russia doesn’t stop people from dying. Never did, never will do.
I get it, your sorry pathetic ass is tired of war that you’re not affected by. You’d rather sweep a few million lives under the rug and call it peace.
Well, your voice belongs under that very rug.
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Ceding land is something which is going to happen whether you like it or not and whatever replies my comment gets. It is just the real, on ground situation
Russia is almost out of tanks, their economy is a shambles, their oil is barely profitable, and they lose 3 men for every one Ukraine does. They may well lose.
Germany lost ww1 this way, they simply could no longer sustain the conflict economically. Wars of attrition look impossible until they suddenly collapse.
Not necessarily. You could end up with the Korea scenario, or India Pakistan border with everlasting tension between the two.
It’s stupid and naive to secede land to Russia at all.
It might be but people cannot keep dying for this stupidity because Ukraine is not going to win, it has been clear from day one. So why push more people into the blender?
People are dying because of RussIa.
Agreed. But they are not going to stop, so we should let more people die?
If Ukraine were to all-out surrender, Russia would continue to kill Ukrainians and take territory. Do you really think Russia would pack up their stuff and go home?
An all-out surrender is not smart. There has to be a ceasefire and then diplomatic solutions sought for. As much as I dislike Trump, he is correct in saying that there will be land swaps. Ukraine has to get guarantees and security measures in exchange, without it there should be no deal.
If your home gets broken into are you not going to defend it? Or will you let the burglar keep your own house so he won’t kill you.
I will defend it but once it is established that I am not going to win, I will seek to protect what I can instead of risking more for what has been lost.
How much of history do you have to ignore to think a country in a defensive war cannot hold off against a larger army until attrition causes the attacker to withdraw?
It can happen but nothing so far has happened here. It has been more than 3 years
The long length attests to the eventual victory of the defender, not the attacker. Russia leadership thought they could win in days, not years. They’ve had 30,000+ hours and haven’t captured Kiev yet, assuming it’s a lost cause from day 1 is completely unjustified. What reason do you have to believe it was decided from day one?
The Russian war goals include an annexation of the entirety of Ukraine and a genocide of the entire Ukrainian populace.
I don’t think giving in to that will lead to less suffering, it will lead to dramatically more suffering.
Source?
Current ICJ case: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/182
Putin claiming rights for all of Ukraine:
General video on Russian war goals: https://youtu.be/MhpoNL1gZbw
Example of Ukrainians suffering under Russian leadership:
He wants the land I agreed myself. I don’t think he wants genocide.
Of course it’s terrible. But have you thought about how terrible being subjugated by Russia would be? They already have a track record of kidnapping Ukrainian kids and doing who knows what with them.
Do you think once the war ends everything will be happy rainbows and cupcakes? Of course not. Conquering Ukraine is the first step in atrocities against its people.
You call 250,000 Russians killed and 1,000,000 total Russian casualties a “winning game?” Do you play Squid Game on weekends for fun?
Yes, because war is won by winning or losing assets. Casualties are a side thing. It is fucking sad but it is what it is.
On that front, Russia’s Soviet inheritance is spent. Covert Cabal regularly does videos on Russia’s remaining tank fleet and there is nothing of note left in storage. They all blew up in Ukraine. Every single link there is a picture or video of an exploded Russian vehicle. Click on a few, then just scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll…
Russian war production is more than 3 times of whole Europe. They can bear some losses. Mineral rich land is much more valuable than weapons.
I would argue this is pretty naive and stupid:
Fair enough
This is also very naive and very stupid
How?
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What does that have to do with this?
“How can we make them pay for something that was stolen from them?”
I suppose it truly is a capitalist approach…
It is not capitalism. It is robbery or extortion. But what is the alternative at this point? Let more people die?
You really think it’s going to stop them from killing people to get what they want? It’d only embolden them.
It’s not like Russia is relying on highly valuable lives to them. And they clearly don’t care about lives of the other side.
This option was tried last time, and here we are. Russia has made it clear that the only option is how much do they want to fight to not be part of Russia. I’m not sure if they can fight enough to stop it, but peace and sovereignty is not an option. As Europeans, I’d push hard to help them because they won’t stop with Ukraine, but they can make it abundantly clear that there are cheaper options than expanding west.
Oh yeah, just give them the land they want. Just like Taiwan and China. Just give them the land they want. Or with Russia and Alaska, just give them the land they want. You sound incredibly stupid.
This works before the war. At this stage, it is moronic to think Ukraine is going to get a better deal than Russia.
What deal? There is no fucking deal? I’ve dealt with stupidity before but goddamn you’re taking the cake.
A peace deal?
That’s not a peace deal. That’s extortion and signing up for genocide.
People are already dying ffs. Stop the deaths that are happening right now than fearing for potential genocide. I don’t even think Putin wants a genocide, he just wants land.
Edit - It is extortion 100% but what is the alternative?
And there it is, ladies and gentlemen. The West isn’t doing anything. Ukraine is the one who was invaded by Russia, and Ukraine is the one who will continue fighting until Russia is out. It was a matter of time before you started regurgitating Russian propaganda.
I don’t agree with npdean, but isn’t that a bit of a stretch?
What propaganda?
There are several problems with making a deal like that.
The primary one is that they already had a deal with Russia and Russia broke it in 2014 and then again in 2022. So why would anyone believe that another deal would stick? They’d just take time to regroup and be back a few years later.
Another is that making a deal where Russia keeps the land that they have control over isn’t a deal, it’s letting Russia keep what they stole. What would Ukraine get from this deal (other than the end to the war as you pointed out)? That’s like making a deal with a burglar saying that they can keep what they stole as long as they get out of the house.
Agreed, it is not wise to just give up land. It has to be accompanied by solid security measures and guarantees. As I said in another comment, there has to be a diplomatic solution after a ceasefire.
So can Ukraine. Ukraine can also make use of the time.
Yes, because he has a gun to my head. I will gladly let them take my whole house if that happened.
Let me guess, your favorite line is “You should just lay back and accept it.”