I’m gonna get real with you folks, we’ve had way too many of these posts recently. I’ve been reflecting on this topic a lot the past few days. For me personally, I couldn’t care less about my gender identity. But just because that’s true for me, doesn’t make that true for everyone.
The beauty of the fediverse is that if you don’t like the way a particular instance or community is moderated you can simply choose another to hang out on, or create your own.
Blajah has made it pretty clear by now they will ban anyone who argues against the validity of xenogenders, in order to create a safe space for those folks. That’s fair enough imo.
Safe spaces should be respected, and Blajah’s admins/mods do not deserve abuse for creating and maintaining those spaces.
I can completely understand why Blajah users don’t want to have to constantly argue with external users about the validity of their chosen identities. Bans are one way Blajah has decided to manage that problem so that their users can experience lemmy in relative peace and safety. While it is a blunt tool and I have my reservations about preemptive bans, there are not many other options for @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone, other than defederation from most instances. That would be a terrible outcome for the fediverse as a whole.
In order to help Blajah to maintain their safe space, I would like to propose, if @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com agrees and community sentiment is positive:
- that we no longer accept posts about this topic in this community; and
- we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
That’s all folks, have at 'er.
Edit: thanks for all your feedback and comments. I think it’s clear that the vast majority of people are fed up with this topic coming up repeatedly.
Summarizing the feedback, I’d say most folks would prefer to retain previous posts for the sake of posterity, and to serve as an example of why we don’t want anymore of these posts. I’m happy to take that on board. For those folks saying I’m a PTB for intervening in this way, I’ll just remind you that I haven’t made any arbitrary mod decisions, and I’ve consulted with db0 and the community as a whole before taking any mod actions.
I think the way to move forward with this is to acknowledge that there’s a bunch of queer and straight people who have a problem with xenogenders. Personally, I think that’s a valid perspective and shouldn’t sanctioned on our instance. But for Blajah, they’ve drawn a line in the sand over this and that’s ok too. Our instance won’t be blocking anyone over their opinions on the topic, especially in this community where free discussion is necessary and encouraged. But safe spaces should be respected.
A lot of folks mentioned I should more more specific about the “no more posts about Blajah’s mod policies” rather than making it a sweeping and overly broad statement. I think that’s good feedback. I will amend this to "No more posts in this community about the validity or otherwise of neopronouns, xenogenders, and bans originating from Blajah about gatekeeping or transphobia. This is in recognition of Blajah’s safe space policy. You are of course free to discuss those topics outside of this community.
Note that this decision isn’t about ideological gatekeeping, its about reducing the workload for our own mods and admins in trying to moderate this community, and to avoid iterating over the same old topics again and again.
Blajah isn’t getting a “free pass” over YPTB posts - if you feel they are power tripping over other issues then feel free to make a post here. But if it’s a post questioning the validity of xenogenders or about Blajah bans for gatekeeping then that will no longer be allowed here. Those folks deserve a safe space on Lemmy, even if it’s not a mainstream opinion.
For those folks who feel aggrieved about being accused of “transphobia” or “gatekeeping” over their views on this topic, I completely understand just how hurtful it can be to be unfairly (imo) accused in this way. I’ve been in the same position, and I also found it difficult to deal with. I want those folks to know that our instance does not require you to support xenogenders in order to participate in our instance. However we do require that you use preferred pronouns whenever they are specified. That’s been a longstanding instance policy on dbzer0.
Thank everyone for your feedback.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
I think @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone would very much agree with this decision as well.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
“It’s not mod abuse if I think they had it coming for Wrongthink, and even discussing the possibility should be banned.”
“It’s not mod abuse if I think they had it coming for Wrongthink, and even discussing the possibility should be banned.”
“I’m just going to ignore every point he makes and make up some worthless garbage about banning by disagreement because I can’t address Draconic’s actual points”
“I’m just going to ignore every point he makes and make up some worthless garbage about banning by disagreement because I can’t address Draconic’s actual points”
The issue brought up by these threads is whether moderator action was justified or not; whereas you are saying the very topic is verboten and makes this place “toxic” and “unusable” as you harass marginalized folk who commit the crime of disagreeing with you. The point you’re making is in favor of a topic ban on YPTB. Hence “and even discussing the possibility should be banned.” I’m sorry that you don’t understand what you yourself are advocating for.
You’re being obtuse and I hope when things cool down you’re able to see the harm this behavior is causing in this specific circumstance and also more generally. I understand that you probably have good intentions but I think you’re either very misguided, trolling, reacting without thinking through the impact of your behavior, or some combination of these things, and I do feel like the ban was warranted especially considering the fit you’re throwing. I have respect for the involvement you have in sustaining and contributing platform and the effort you clearly put into it, and I have seen you say things I really agreed with, but this is too much for me. This is not how you encourage left unity and safe and sustainable practices that support as many people as possible. I know you know about the paradox of tolerance.
You’re being obtuse and I hope when things cool down you’re able to see the harm this behavior is causing in this specific circumstance and also more generally.
A trans user was just harassed off the Fediverse by these people, man. Is that harm invisible? I’m bitching about people doing that. That’s harmful?
I understand that you probably have good intentions but I think you’re either very misguided, trolling, reacting without thinking through the impact of your behavior, or some combination of these things, and I do feel like the ban was warranted especially considering the fit you’re throwing.
My ban’s not the issue, here. When it was locked the other day, I was content to let that be it. The ban was a minor thing; annoying and shitty, but ultimately not meaning much considering that, as mentioned in the OP, I didn’t even use Blahaj anymore.
If you think my ban was warranted, that’s fine. But “We shouldn’t discuss Blahaj anymore”, as in the comment I was replying to, is not.
I know you know about the paradox of tolerance.
Sure. You tolerate Nazis, they’ll take over and won’t tolerate you.
Where are the Nazis, here?
Because it looks to me an awful lot like infinite purity tests inflicted even on users outside of the Blahaj instance, combined with sustained harassment; neither of which encourage left unity or safe and sustainable practices that support as many people as possible.
Where are the Nazis, here?
Luckily I don’t see many here (Lemmy), and if I do I am prepared to confront them in whatever way is required. Please point me in their direction if you know of any. I hope you’re not calling the people who are upset by this situation Nazis, because I haven’t seen any behavior that would warrant that and it would be very alarming and disappointing if that was happening here in a digital space I have come to feel safer in than most others, and would warrant an evaluation of what I am doing here, and I hope that I haven’t been spending my time reaching out and talking to and just associating with people who hold those beliefs.
A trans user was just harassed off the Fediverse by these people
I saw some of the comments that person was making. If they have to go somewhere else to learn how to respect spaces specifically curated by and for trans people that’s fine with me, I didn’t get the feeling they (or for that matter, you) were willing or able to do so at this point, at least in this specific case in the way that was asked.
And please don’t throw in my face again their (or for that matter, your own) marginalized status, it feels to me like it’s being used as some kind of gotcha or get out of jail free card, and that is disrespectful as much as most anything that I’ve seen* has happened in this thread.
I am hoping that by adding my perspective others might feel supported or safer here, and others yet will hopefully see that horizontal harm is a thing that we have to be aware of and identify and do the work to minimize, internally and externally (referring to both the harm and the work).
I’m bitching about people doing that.
I am not talking directly to anyone but you, and here, you are talking to me, please keep that in mind. It’s fine to complain and always good to speak out against harm coming unwarranted or unfairly to others, but I’m talking to you about your behavior.
Please feel free to reach out for further 1:1 discussion, or not if you do not want to. It’s about time we end the the perpetuation of harm in online and physical spaces and in the systems that we live under. Please also feel free to reach out for support with other efforts towards that goal or other similar ones.
Edited to add language to clarify a bit, if others feel like I’m wrong in my assessments and what I’ve said I am open to feedback, I’m not trying to deny anyone’s experience or minimize harm that has come to others. My goal is always to prevent and reduce harm and if I’m not doing that I would hope someone here would call me in.
Luckily I don’t see many here (Lemmy), and if I do I am prepared to confront them in whatever way is required.
In this comparison, where are the Nazis, here?
Where is the threat which, if tolerated, will oppress everyone else?
Please, enlighten me.
And please don’t throw in my face again their (or for that matter, your own) marginalized status, it feels to me like it’s being used as some kind of gotcha or get out of jail free card, and that is disrespectful as much as most anything that has happened in this thread.
Considering that this is all to the drumbeat of “We MUST protect marginalized people!”, it’s kind of fucking relevant.
I am not talking directly to anyone but you, and here, you are talking to me, please keep that in mind. It’s fine to complain and always good to speak out against harm coming unwarranted or unfairly to others, but I’m talking to you about your behavior.
My behavior being complaining something you don’t feel should be complained about, because you feel silence and complicity serves the LGBT community on Lemmy more than airing out the dirty laundry?
Where is the threat which, if tolerated, will oppress everyone else?
The current US admin and other actual Nazis.
where are the Nazis, here?
I told you I don’t see any, here in this thread, and rarely if ever on Lemmy as a whole would I describe the behavior of others as “Nazi” or as you put it “Where is the threat which, if tolerated, will oppress everyone else?”, which is apparently what you think Nazi means?
Please, enlighten me.
Please enlighten me as to where I said there were any here. As I recall that was you, still waiting for that link.
My behavior being complaining something you don’t feel should be complained about
I did not and would not say that.
because you feel silence and complicity serves the LGBT community on Lemmy more than airing out the dirty laundry?
Yeah, that’s clearly consistent with my behavior and what I say here and elsewhere 🙄 fuck off troll
They’re just wanting you to call them a Nazi so it can be screenshotted and posted as proof of something elsewhere.
You seem like the kinda guy who says calling Nazis Nazis devalues the word Nazi.
… because I summarized someone else’s position accurately?
I’m completely in favor of this.
Frankly, most of what I see on this comm is BPR and YDI, and most people could probably benefit from taking their bans and touching grass. But having some posts be YDI makes the PTB’s more exciting so maybe i’m wrong.
Maybe we should make some penalty for earning a YDI or BPR, so that people who receive them aren’t encouraged to re-hash the same conflicts over and over? I’m honestly not sure. Part of the problem is that the same people cross-post the same conflict on similar comms, which makes it feel as if the same issue is being litigated repeatedly.
But complaining about receiving a ban from a protective community with strict conduct policies is certainly not the intent of this community, i don’t think.
But complaining about receiving a ban from a protective community with strict conduct policies is certainly not the intent of this community, i don’t think.
Is that all it takes to be immune from PTB status? Being a ‘protective’ community, but only towards the ‘right’ people who think in the ‘right’ way?
Maybe it is? Don’t non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
If they have a rule against gatekeeping gender identities and pronouns in their own instance, don’t they have a right to remove offenders from their servers?
You’re all over this topic today, maybe just take a second and listen to what the community is saying. You’ve more than said your piece.
Maybe it is? Don’t non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
Is there a group out there that doesn’t have the right to moderate their own space ‘as they like’?
If they have a rule against gatekeeping gender identities and pronouns in their own instance, don’t they have a right to remove offenders from their servers?
“They have the right” and “It is always the correct call” are two entirely different concepts.
You’re all over this topic today, maybe just take a second and listen to what the community is saying. You’ve more than said your piece.
Yeah, well maybe I’m fucking pissed that I just watched a user get harassed out of the Fediverse because Blahaj wants to play harassment games on other people’s instances, and that I’m the one who had to fucking bring it up to be discussed. Maybe I don’t like the idea that if I stayed quiet this all would’ve been swept under the rug.
Jesus
I haven’t a clue what event you’re referring to even though I feel as though I’ve encountered nothing but your comments today. If your goal is to discuss a specific abuse then you’ve done a piss poor job of it.
I’d recommend reaching out to @dbzero@lemmy.dbzer0.com if you think there’s been that severe of an abuse that’s happened, and the community mod hasn’t addressed it well enough.
Honestly, though, it just seems like you have an axe to grind and you’re taking it out on everyone else. Either settle it with the admins or cool off a bit, you’re souring the space for everyone by flaming out like this.
I haven’t a clue what event you’re referring to even though I feel as though I’ve encountered nothing but your comments today.
I’ve summarized the events in this thread alone at least twice.
My opinions on xenogender aside, the fact that Blahaj defenders, in this very comm, harassed a trans user into leaving the Fediverse has me fuming, and rightfully so in my opinion. And they play it off as “[The harassed user] deserved it.” even now. That is pretty core to the anger I feel right now.
Uh, considering recent events, where Blahaj defenders dogpiled a trans person on another instance for disagreeing with them, you sure about that
Most of my comments have been refutations to specific arguments put forth in the context of those events.
Do you have something more specific than your (purely objective) recounting of what happened? A link to it?
At the moment, I’m not sure I’d trust you if you told me the sky was blue
https://lemmy.world/post/26286098
It’s one of the most recent threads on this comm.
And what about queer people who don’t play the pronoun police power tripping game? We should just go fuck ourselves I guess
Everything involving this Blahaj slapfight has been BPR, and anyone continuing to rehash it over here is just BPR^2
Like, seriously, this should’ve ended the minute the obvious troll provoking everyone got banned. Nothing productive will ever come of continuing to talk about it now, all sides need to let it go.
real af
real af
Oh cool, so you weren’t one of the people saying everyone who left 196 was a transphobe?
Oh, wait, you’re literally one of the people who fucking started this.
jokes aside, i have been consistently defending you on blahaj for months explicitly that i don’t think you’re a transphobe and moreso just a bad ally. i get some pushback but i think my points get heard. :)
jokes aside, i have been consistently defending you on blahaj for months explicitly that i don’t think you’re a transphobe and moreso just a bad ally. i get some pushback but i think my points get heard. :)
It’s cute that you still talk about me there.
oh yikes no i didn’t say frequently i said consistently. maybe 2 times. but both times i did!
oh yikes no i didn’t say frequently i said consistently. maybe 2 times. but both times i did!
Typical of your level of literacy. I didn’t say frequently.
It’s cute that you still talk about me there.
just making sure you didn’t get the wrong idea! frankly we dgaf about you
Proposing a very specific limit on posts referring mod/admin actions taken against users on LBZ that directly fall afoul of their instance rules regarding very specific gatekeeping might have some value. The subject has been hashed and re-hashed too fucking much. Their rules are their rules, breaking those rules on the instance is clear YDI. Breaking those rules elsewhere and having action taken against you is arguably PTB. I’m in favor of the idea of putting that on wax.
Purging previous discussion is no good, and even the proposal, coming from a community mod as it does, rubs me the wrong way. It shouldn’t, because you have just as much right to propose a change as any other community member, but it puts me on edge.
There is value in what’s been said already, even if some of it is highly disagreeable. Suggesting removal of that record for any reason invites future discussion of the same, IMO. Not everyone who will ever be a member of this community is a member now. If we’re going to consider making a rule about this whole mess, best to leave the roadmap that led us here intact.
Potential yes to a well-defined rule of specific, narrow scope. Hard, hard no to retroactive application of that rule.
I just want to clarify. The only people getting banned for remote comments are people who knowingly and explicitly gatekeep other folks identity in response to this topic coming up. They are banned so that they don’t start appearing in blahaj communities with the very people they’re invalidating.
To me, there’s no difference. If someone’s response to this topic coming up is to double down on gatekeeping, it doesn’t make them any less harmful just because they did it outside of a blåhaj community.
We’re about to be genocided but yeah let’s make a safe space for fantasy fucking neo pronouns and non human identities. Yeah. You really got your eye on the ball when it comes to the safety of queer people while supporting those who make a mockery of us. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
