So I dont believe in free will ,through a combination of experience and events in my life(most to do with leaving religion) however like most, I recognise the need for the concept of free will, as artificial as it may be
But where to draw the line. Obviously, even for people that believe in free will, where they draw there line is different among each other e.g across cultures, generation and among individual, but what do you do when you know that line is just artificial.
For example, alots people say that trauma doesn’t excuses abuse, only contextualise, it but if you have statical evidence that a large or even most of abusers have been abused/been through a traumatic event that is by defined an excuse.
Weather or not freewill truly exists we’re all fucked just the same.
First off you don’t have statistical evidence since you also have to compare it to the number of people who were abused and haven’t abused anyone. The fact that you’re a statistic is probably because you were reported as being abusive. The reason why it seems deterministic is because non-abuse isn’t something that people report. The key word is “believe” which means you can believe whatever you want, actual experience is less malleable than belief.
So I dont believe in free will ,through a combination of experience and events in my life(most to do with leaving religion) however like most, I recognise the need for the concept of free will, as artificial as it may be
People who say this are more or less always confusing two different definitions.
Libertarian free will, being the ability to make a choice without context is obviously impossible.
What most people think of as free will “the ability to make a choice” is very obviously real.
I can chose to raise my hand, I can chose to lower it.
For example, alots people say that trauma doesn’t excuses abuse, only contextualise, it but if you have statical evidence that a large or even most of abusers have been abused/been through a traumatic event that is by defined an excuse.
People misuse the word “excuse” a lot. Like a huge amount.
People say “that is not an excuse” when what they mean is “that doesn’t make it ok.” or they say “I dont want excuses” when what they mean is “I am going to be mad no matter reasonable your actions are”
Yes, abusing somebody because you are abused is an excuse (in that it explains why), its also not an excuse (in that it doesnt make it ok).
You need to be more specific in what “excuse” means.
What most people think of as free will “the ability to make a choice” is very obviously real.
I dont think so, everything I have or will ever do is something that has been set in motion long before I was ever born. Most people understand this on the macro level, where you were born, where you go to school/life, your nationality and even stuff like what you choose to do for living.
What I am arguing that it’s all predetermined, that yes which hand you choose to raise is not a choice your making but the dominio effect of the entire universe, that you choosing to use your hand as example is not a choose, that your believe in free will is not a choose as much as my lack of believe in it isn’t my choice. How you worded that, the language you used, you seeing and reply to this post, the platform your on etc etc…
I am not saying this is good or even realistic believe just the one that makes the most sense, at least to me.
I suppose it’s not that free will is not real but rather its a paradoxical concept. Free will means the ability to make one’s own choice but no choice really is your own because nothing exists in vacuum.
You need to be more specific in what “excuse” means.
Sorry, I worded that incorrectly. I guess what I am trying to say that someone who abuses another because of Schizophrenia isn’t anymore to people than someone who doesn’t have a mental illness and has still abused someone. In both cases we could do what we can to stop the abuse but doesn’t mean we are assigning blame to anyone.
I believe in causal determinism and personally I still believe in free will, because in a hypothetically undetermined existence where we have this magic power to make a decision, it makes an impact whether or not I believe in it. In a determined existence whether I’m aware of it or not doesn’t matter as it’s already determined.
When it comes to laws, ethics and judgements, I don’t think there is a clear solution, since all of this is built on the idea of free will and specifically accountability. We have this weird line, because only with time we took some levels of determinism into account for judging an action, e.g. psychological determinism.
I’m not sure where my line is. I guess in practice it makes sense that we can only consider determining causes where we can describe the events that lead to the action in detail (that too is vague and contextual). E.g. Tourette causing someone to say the n-word is more direct, clear and definitive than a traumatic event leading to abuse. Then again, it also means my lack of (specific) information in the chain of causation decides how I view someone.
