Hey all! This is a bit of a follow-up to a post I made a couple months ago regarding our bathroom reno: https://sh.itjust.works/post/56769265
Long story short, the mortar bed subfloor was crumbling away, and I could literally tear up chunks with my bear hands, so we decided to take it all out. I’m going to sister all the joists to re-level the floor, put in blocking for under the clawfoot tub, then 3/4" plywood subfloor, Ditra, and tile. But that’s not what this post is about.
This post is about all that copper plumbing. I think the stuff above the tub spout is relatively new, but I think everything below that (tub supplies, toilet supply, sink supplies) is a lot older, maybe original, which would make that close to 70 years old. Some of it looks pretty crusty and corroded to my untrained eye, so my question is, should I redo any of that copper while I’ve got the wall open? If so, to what extent, and with copper or PEX? I mentioned earlier that we’re putting in a clawfoot tub, so we won’t need basically anything above the tub spout. I know clawfoots traditionally have supplies coming up through the floor, so I may end up reconfiguring to accommodate that, but I’m also considering taking the easy way out there and using some flex hose coming out of the wall.
I don’t have a torch or a PEX crimping tool, so either way I go I’m gonna have to buy a new toy. But which one? How would y’all go about this? Thanks in advance for the input!
I wouldn’t replace existing, non-leaking copper. It should be fine for a long, long time. But I wouldn’t spend a lot of time trying to stay in copper for new stuff. Use a copper-to-pex sweat fitting where you need new stuff, and go pex from there. The supposed benefits of copper (which I don’t really buy) aren’t worth the hassle of dealing with copper fittings and the extra work for routing.
Old builder dude here. IMO, copper is the best you could ask for. I assume you have it under pressure already and you have inspected it thoroughly. I wouldn’t pay any attention to surface oxidation. I would pay attention to any freeze damage, porosity or poor soldering. If it needs some repair, now is the time to do it. But I absolutely would not tear it out unless most of it is damaged beyond repair.
Second this. If you don’t have leaks, the copper that’s there is almost certainly better than what you’ll replace it with. 70 years in service is reason to be confidant, not skeptical.
I see where both of you guys are coming from for sure, but I just wanna make sure I’m covering my bases. If there’s anything there that looks like it’s on its last legs, I wanna get that taken care of while the wall is still open. Some of that blue/green corrosion around the joints looks scary to me, but I don’t have much (any 😅) experience with copper plumbing, so I can’t say for sure.
It’s just on the surface. Clean it with a scotchbrite pad or wheel just to assure yourself.
Yeah, I’m not buying the Pex hype. Talk to me in 30 years.
Bears doing plumbing, what’s next?
I’ve had 50 year old copper develop pinhole leaks from internal corrosion but it depends on your water quality. I would replace everything that’s easy to access while you have it all open. That should be a relatively moderate additional overall expense and could save you huge regret later.
But if you sweat the copper yourself and do a mediocre job you could regret it much sooner. It’s not excessively difficult but there is a bit of an art to it. Watch some videos and practice on scraps first.
Clean the copper ends very well. Especially on the ends of the existing pipe. Buy tools to make that easy. Use flux (apply with an acid brush). Wash off the flux residue after the joint cools. It’s corrosive, but you really only need to wipe it away with a wet rag. A simple propane torch is fine, but you need to hit the correct temperature. Watch the rainbow color changes in the copper while you practice. Also buy a a flame cloth/heat shield to protect your structure (not strictly necessary, but you’re a beginner).
Copper is expensive these days, but don’t cheap out with M-type. Use L, which is slightly thicker. K is only needed when buried outside.
PEX B is pretty easy (except for tight spaces), but you need to ensure you get correct alignment of the crimp rings, and use the checker tool to ensure correct crimping. The plastic degrades in UV light and is a flood risk when accessible by chewing rodents in breached attic or crawl space. Use copper stub outs if you go with PEX. You can crimp onto those, but you’ll still need to sweat on a copper/PEX adapter at the point you cut the existing pipes.
PEX A requires much more expensive tools and it’s only appropriate for professional plumbers. Same with ProPress (crimped copper), which I think is inferior to sweat fittings anyway. It’s optimized for installation speed & reducing labor costs, and the seal comes from embedded EDPM gaskets rather than solder.
If you live somewhere with hard water, replace the copper with pex. The minerals eat away the pipes. We had a home in a hard water area once, sooo many pinhole leaks over time, and water heaters had really short life spans. If your water doesn’t require a softener, then keep the copper. If there’s a chance the pipes were exposed to freezing conditions at all in the past, look for bulges in the copper which will indicate weakened lines that should be replaced.
I’m going to advocate for PEX-A and home runs to the manifold. It uses expansion fittings rather than crimp. It’s what I used when I redid the house I bought five years ago.
Aren’t the tools for the expansion fitting super expensive? Or is there a cheaper way to use them?
Not really. You can get manual pumps for PEX A which are about the same price as a tile cutter… They are fine. You only need those 500$ power tool expanders if you were doing plumbing all day every day.
If so, to what extent, and with copper or PEX?
Consider using neither and going with CPVC. It’s install is much more user-friendly, uses practically no special tools and it has a very long and successful track record(use in residential work for over 60 years).
Booo! Boo this schim! Boooo!
Lol I think you’re in a very select crowd of people that advocates for CPVC. I hadn’t considered it because it was pretty regularly recommended against in all the research I’ve done so far
As a thirty plus year plumbing veteran, I’ll gladly defer to your internet searches.
Lol
Internet searches that have turned up a multitude of other thirty year plumbing veterans scorning CPVC. I’m genuinely interested if you have reasons you like CPVC over the other options.
what’s the advantage of CPVC over PEX? I’ve run a few PEX lines off my old copper pipes and didn’t need any expensive tooling, just a ratchet cutter and sharkbite fittings, which were a little expensive but suited my small needs pretty well.
You might have answered your own question. Sharkbites should never be used in a non-accessible environment(think in walls, buried by insulation, etc.) They are incredibly handy for the DIYer but due to their complexity in the clamping mechanism, much more prone to failure than a glued or crimped connection.
They inherently rely on o rings that dry out like any other polymer.
Yeah but sharkbites aren’t necessary for PEX, I was just using them for convenience’s sake. Is there a benefit to doing home plumbing with CPVC over, say, PEX-B with crimped connections?
Never trust a sharkbite for long term use. Never seal it behind drywall. It may be code compliant but that’s a disaster waiting to happen.
