In short, Ukraine allowed itself to be instrumentalized by the west as a weapon against Russia.
Pretty sure Ukrainians just want better living conditions just like anyone else. And “the west” happens to have arguably the best living conditions; I’m not surprised anyone would want to be at this table. Are you really arguing that people are looking at Russia as a nice place to go live? I’ve never actually set foot there, but from the other side of the world it doesn’t look good. Even I know it’s not actually “liberalized”.
Also, invading Ukraine as a preventative measure against NATO expansion turned out to be spectacularly stupid, because it directly led to NATO expansion to a direct neighbour (Finland).
But yeah, in general I’m not on the side of countries invading other ones. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is wrong, what Israel is doing in Palestine is wrong, and what the US is doing in Venezuela/Iran/Greenland/Cuba is also wrong.
Do you think they were ever going to give Ukrainians a chance to be “western”? They just wanted to use them as a tool against Russia, not elevate them to a western European standard of living. The entire inciting incident of Euromaidan and all of this was Yanukovych’s cancellation of the Ukraine-EU association agreement in favour of a deal with Russia, but the thing is, Russia actually offered a better deal than the EU. This pissed off the nationalists (read: Nazis) because they really hated Russia, and pissed off the NGO liberals because they hated Russia and loved the EU.
But Yanukovych did actually have his own constituency, which was the Russian speaking east, and they saw the “revolution” as the nationalists undemocratically imposing their will on the country. The new government pretty much immediately sent in the army to quell the unrest, and this sparked the civil war, which led to the eventual Russian invasion. Once again, I will reiterate that Zelensky was elected as the peace candidate who would stop the war, but the nationalists sabotaged the peace process. He went to the frontline and ordered them to stand down, and they stonewalled him. I saw the video, and this was before AI video was even close to convincing (will smith eating the spaghetti era).
So what you have is a Ukrainian state that’s captured by, on one hand, extreme nationalists who idolize Stepan Bandera (a fascist genocidaire from WW2), and on the other by NGO liberals, who aren’t much less bloodthirsty and see the easterners (really, see the whole working class) as expendable post-soviet refuse. The NGO liberals don’t fight on the front, and while the Azovites did put up a fight at Mariupol, they seem to mostly fill the line with middle aged conscripts they drag off the street rather than have the hardcore nationalists do the fighting.
As far as what they’re fighting for, the reforms of the post-maidan government just amounted to decommunization and Ukrainization - that is to say, they removed old Soviet monuments and banned the Communist party; and they suppressed the main minority language of the country. They didn’t make life better for anyone, they didn’t strengthen labour laws or the welfare state, they just did a right wing culture war. Actually, that’s not quite correct - they also cut natural gas subsidies and lifted a ban on sale of farmland (i.e. to foreign investors),, and privatized the economy further.
They could have had a peace treaty, and the only cost would have been giving eastern Ukraine a seat at the table. Instead, the nationalists and liberals opted to let their country be used as a kamikaze against Russia. Sure, Russia could have just not invaded, but they saw the issue as an existential red line. The west knew that they would eventually respond to provocation, but they figured there would be little cost to the west, and didn’t care about the cost to Ukraine. Now there have been entire generations of men fed into the meat grinder with no end in sight, and Russia continuing to slowly advance. In what world is this better than just signing a peace treaty and ending the civil war? Do you think Europe is going to rebuild what’s left of Ukraine once this is over?
Even I know it’s not actually “liberalized”.
Yes it is, the USSR was destroyed and the economy was liberalized.
Pretty sure Ukrainians just want better living conditions just like anyone else. And “the west” happens to have arguably the best living conditions; I’m not surprised anyone would want to be at this table. Are you really arguing that people are looking at Russia as a nice place to go live? I’ve never actually set foot there, but from the other side of the world it doesn’t look good. Even I know it’s not actually “liberalized”.
Also, invading Ukraine as a preventative measure against NATO expansion turned out to be spectacularly stupid, because it directly led to NATO expansion to a direct neighbour (Finland).
But yeah, in general I’m not on the side of countries invading other ones. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is wrong, what Israel is doing in Palestine is wrong, and what the US is doing in Venezuela/Iran/Greenland/Cuba is also wrong.
Do you think they were ever going to give Ukrainians a chance to be “western”? They just wanted to use them as a tool against Russia, not elevate them to a western European standard of living. The entire inciting incident of Euromaidan and all of this was Yanukovych’s cancellation of the Ukraine-EU association agreement in favour of a deal with Russia, but the thing is, Russia actually offered a better deal than the EU. This pissed off the nationalists (read: Nazis) because they really hated Russia, and pissed off the NGO liberals because they hated Russia and loved the EU.
But Yanukovych did actually have his own constituency, which was the Russian speaking east, and they saw the “revolution” as the nationalists undemocratically imposing their will on the country. The new government pretty much immediately sent in the army to quell the unrest, and this sparked the civil war, which led to the eventual Russian invasion. Once again, I will reiterate that Zelensky was elected as the peace candidate who would stop the war, but the nationalists sabotaged the peace process. He went to the frontline and ordered them to stand down, and they stonewalled him. I saw the video, and this was before AI video was even close to convincing (will smith eating the spaghetti era).
So what you have is a Ukrainian state that’s captured by, on one hand, extreme nationalists who idolize Stepan Bandera (a fascist genocidaire from WW2), and on the other by NGO liberals, who aren’t much less bloodthirsty and see the easterners (really, see the whole working class) as expendable post-soviet refuse. The NGO liberals don’t fight on the front, and while the Azovites did put up a fight at Mariupol, they seem to mostly fill the line with middle aged conscripts they drag off the street rather than have the hardcore nationalists do the fighting.
As far as what they’re fighting for, the reforms of the post-maidan government just amounted to decommunization and Ukrainization - that is to say, they removed old Soviet monuments and banned the Communist party; and they suppressed the main minority language of the country. They didn’t make life better for anyone, they didn’t strengthen labour laws or the welfare state, they just did a right wing culture war. Actually, that’s not quite correct - they also cut natural gas subsidies and lifted a ban on sale of farmland (i.e. to foreign investors),, and privatized the economy further.
They could have had a peace treaty, and the only cost would have been giving eastern Ukraine a seat at the table. Instead, the nationalists and liberals opted to let their country be used as a kamikaze against Russia. Sure, Russia could have just not invaded, but they saw the issue as an existential red line. The west knew that they would eventually respond to provocation, but they figured there would be little cost to the west, and didn’t care about the cost to Ukraine. Now there have been entire generations of men fed into the meat grinder with no end in sight, and Russia continuing to slowly advance. In what world is this better than just signing a peace treaty and ending the civil war? Do you think Europe is going to rebuild what’s left of Ukraine once this is over?
Yes it is, the USSR was destroyed and the economy was liberalized.