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12 hours agoAll we wanted to know was whether a hot dog is a sandwich…
I don’t know anymore man, it’s a sausage? 😭
Certified WokeTM Member of the Tesseract banlist. Get on my level, scrub.
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Cake day: June 29th, 2023
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In a fully-automated luxury communist utopia, the Maquis are selfish assholes. Clinging to a planet because of the inconvenience of having to relocate. A planet which was never theirs to give or take in the first place.
fucking a-men!
great take, especially
The way some of the Maquis stories are told in late TNG and then DS9 is not the best Trek has to offer.
OK… but it very much feels like a protracted escalation that is to lay at the feet at the Colonists refusing the fucking leave, and the Cardassians acting, predictably like assholes.
HUDSON: I knew him. Bill Samuels was a farmer. He cultivated his land for twenty years. He raised two kids on that land. He made something out of that land and the Federation told him he had to give it all up to the Cardassians. Well, he just was not willing to do that
SISKO: And it was people like him who made both sides realise that some accommodation had to be made for the colonies so they could stay.
I mean, this nails the fucking thing on the head. Bill wanted to take advantage of the hard work he did, which is fair. He was warned the Cardassians owned the planet now, and that if he wants to stay safe, he needs to leave, and that the Cardassians are assholes. He says no. Ok. The federations says “Look, we have this treaty, but we aren’t going to do jack to enforce it. You’re on your own”. He says OK. The Cardassians act like assholes. Shock , horror. Now Bill is mad, that the people he was told was going to fuck him over , fucked him over.
Let’s pan over to somewhere else now.
Imagine you are a Cardassian Colonist, and you are working on a terraforming mission. You’ve been on Unnamed Planetopia for 15 years and worked on a mine so that your family in Cardassia could afford a house or fucking whatever. Then, some human asshole bombs your planet with cobalt diselenide, and you gurgle to death as your lungs turn to liquid.
Your Cousin on Bill’s planet hears the news about yet another human acting like shit on an planet owned by Cardassia, and how you , and your entire colony was wiped out by that fearsome maverick, Michael Eddington, and he has enough of that poison to kill every Cardassian in the DMZ.
Eddington has attacked a Cardassian colony with a biogenic weapon. The chemical used was cobalt diselenide, created from the selenium and rhodium nitrite, which is lethal to Cardassians but harmless to most humanoids. The Maquis have already announced an intention to reclaim the planet. Also, with the amount of biogenic weapons the Maquis have, they can poison every Cardassian colony world in the Demilitarized Zone.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/For_the_Uniform_(episode)
Do you really think that this shit is making things any better for anyone? Does anyone expect Gul Generic to act civilised towards Bill getting in his face when his cousin and the entire fucking colony choked to death in agony?
Obviously, the tales in Star Trek, are morality plays based on things in history. The problem is that the federation is meant to be fair, just and able to provide everything people need.
It boils down to a few ideas :
- Personal risk management
- Post war border settlements and their adjustments to the new borders.
- The “inevitability of the federation”
Personal risk management
The colonists accepted the risk that the Cardassians would treat them unfairly, and the risk came out badly for them. Just like when people go skydiving or rock climbing and sign waivers to accept a personal risk, the colonists accepted the risk that the cardassians would treat them like shit. The federation can try to rescue them, and I’m sure the cardassians would let them flee, but they want to fight, and they fucking ask the federation for assistance. Bruh, fuck off. There are more controversial ways of looking at this, but , if you choose to take risks, don’t act out cry “unfair” when the risks don’t go your way. There are people like this IRL that gamble or make risky choices, and cry foul when it goes sour; it’s part and parcel of that risk. I’m not saying those people shouldn’t be offered assistance after, but insisting on validation that they didn’t make a mistake and to continue whatever lifestyle they want is bullshit.
Post war border settlements and their adjustments to the new borders
In IRL there are places that end up in the “wrong country” due to a settlement post war/conflict/treaty. The well being of those places are almost always dependent on what happens between the two countries in the following years. Some examples can be seen on wikipedia :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divided_cities
Some places of note to think about :
One of the weirdes enclave/exclave situations were set up in the border between India and Bangladesh, which literally lead to people dying and services being completely busted and inaccessible to local people. Its exact opposite would be Baarle-(Hertog/Nassau), where due to the Schangen agreement and the peace and co-operation between Belgium and the Netherlands, life in the village is peaceful and largely indifferent to the notions of enclaves and exclaves.
Alsace(–Lorraine) was a disputed territory between france and germany, especially during WW1, and a thorn in the side for negociations for peace. At present, similarly to Baarle, due to the peace between france and germany and the EU, things seem to be going all right for them. Same goes for Tyrol and Austria/Italy. There are contentions, but no one is getting blown up over it.
The “inevitability of the federation”
While this is not something that’s part of IRL, it is an interesting idea I saw in a video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbys9HJvSXA (this fucking things is half an hour long)
Bottom line : The federation is too damn efficient for other cultures to not eventually make peace and trade with it instead of being a pain in their ass. They will inevitably stop wars with you, and start being your allies, one way or the other. It happened to the Klingons, and it “is happening” to
spoiler
the Romulans and the Ferengi.
NB: I am not talking about post burn. Fuck you, I’m not going to cover an entire millenia of fake history.
Eventually, the federation will settle the disputes with cardassia, and establish more amicable relationships with them. Then the DMZ will be pacified, things will get bettter for the inhabitants of planets in and around the DMZ, both federation and cardassian.
But you gotta let go man. Diplomacy can’t continue when you’re polluting entire fucking planets and harming civilians on either side.
I’m tired. What was the question again?
They do plenty of terraforming adjacent tasks in TNG, mainly for planets that have recently joined the federation, or are undergoing some kind of collapse prevention. I think the issue with Project Genesis and similar is that they were “bombs” that would instantly overwrite the ecological system on a planet with a predetermined one, wiping out the existing ecological system in the process, to put plainly, killing everything.
The terraforming I’m talking about is stuff like earthquake mitigation, adjusting “atmospheric conditions” to stop greenhouse effects or similar, etc. And it’s all signed off in triplicate from the federation etc, not just lobbing a terraforming bomb at a planet on a whim.
IDK, the universe is pretty vast, and they seem to be tripping over M class planets. Also, there are several other classes of planet available and they do some terraforming, it wouldn’t be too far fetched to say they took a “not quite M-Class” planet and did a little terraforming and had that up for grabs.
do they have the right to defend themselves when the Cardassians violate the terms that they agreed to and tried to drive them off those worlds?
When you word it like that, they deserve to defend themselves if/when the Cardassians violate the terms of the treaty they reached with the former UFP/Current Cardassian colonists.
Which is the key term here. AFAI remember, they agreed to be subjects of Cardassia, which means the planet belongs to the Cardassians, which means they are probably going to mine the shit out of every natural resource on there.
However, if they have specific details they hammered out with these descendants of native americans, I don’t think was specified in the episode.
It’s sort of the point of the thread, so it seems a little odd to suddenly try to make it sound silly.
I understand and appriciate that, my point is more that they arrived at “a peace treaty” I don’t know if it was to stop a war, prevent a war or whatever, just that “A peace treaty” was made, and the circumstances are irrelevant to the matter of the right/wrongness of Maquis behaviour.
it is to stop an interplanetary war.
The Federation and the Cardassians were not at war when the treaty was signed…
You really want to split hairs about the fine details of fake politics?
It’s sort of the point of the thread, so it seems a little odd to suddenly try to make it sound silly.
Like, putting a peace treaty at risk presumably would cause a war, or “bad things”. That’s what I mean. The Maquis are putting peace at risk by throwing their tantrum, regardless of how or why the peace treaty was needed.
yeah, you wanna explain the good friday agreement to me? Or do you just want all the protestants off the island?
The Federation and the Cardassians were not at war when the treaty was signed…
According to the fictional storyline of the Star Trek universe, the Maquis were formed in the 24th century after a peace treaty was enacted between the United Federation of Planets and the Cardassian Union, redesignating the demilitarized zone between the two powers, which resulted in the Federation ceding several of their colony worlds to the Cardassians. Although the colonists were offered free relocation to elsewhere in Federation territory, some insisted on remaining on the ceded worlds; effectively becoming subject to the Cardassian Union, which behaves aggressively towards them. Some of these colonists subsequently formed the Maquis to protect themselves from Cardassian aggression, due to a lack of official support from the Federation; who feared breaking the peace treaty with the Cardassians, which would lead to war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_(Star_Trek)#Storyline
Bruh we’re on an internet board. You really want to split hairs about the fine details of fake politics?
For the sake of argument, how many years is the cutoff that flips it from “fine” to “evil”?
Multiple lifetimes having passed. As in, two sentient lifebeing lifespans, to the point where the original migration is completely removed from living memory. This isn’t “all the colonists knew from the moment they were born” this is “We set up that well 10 years ago, and we barely got to use it”. You worked as an agreement with an organisation, that has now had to adjust to harsh realities, and you also need to do so.
Citation needed? I don’t think that was ever stated, and “Journey’s End” is actually pretty clear about a new home having not even been identified.
Picard and Deanna Troi are on Dorvan V, conducting the initial meeting with the Tribal Council. Picard tells the Native American leaders that there is very little he can do to change the situation, as the decision was made at the very highest level of Starfleet. Anthwara, the leader of the tribe on Dorvan V, resists Picard’s attempt to convince them to relocate. Troi offers the suggestion of other available planets to colonize with similar environmental conditions, as well as their help in getting settled immediately. Anthwara responds saying that the environmental conditions themselves are not the basis of their location, but, rather, that the mountains the rivers and the sky welcomed them.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Journey's_End_(episode)
My interpretation of the events is that eventually the butt of a Cardassian rifle is going to welcome it’s new home in the heads of one of these native american settlers, and they are going to lament their choices.
You could say the exact same thing about the Cardassians.
The Maquis are trying to undermine a peace treaty full of compromises.
Yes you could. Which is why they ended up with a compromise for both the Cardassians and the Federation, to create a fragile peace that can be maintained if both parts accept the compromises each on ceded.
I don’t see any good way to fill in the blank where “forced relocation is fine when _____” is the sentence.
“forced relocation is fine when you (are colonisers who) set up base there about 20 years ago, you will get more than handsomely rewarded with an equal or bigger piece of land on a different planet and not be inconvenienced, and it is to stop an interplanetary war.”
EDIT : Added parts in brackets
No.
The Maquis are trying to undermine a peace treaty full of compromises. Basically, any time you think the Maquis are doing the right thing, think of what would happen if the compromise the Cardassians would ask for is to have Bajor back, and turn Kira Nerys’ favourite planet back into a slave run industrial wasteland.
In the vast emptiness of space, there are plenty of planets that aren’t contested. Get the colonisers (which is what these fucking people are) to go there. You have fucking replicator technology, and transporters, you don’t need to be hellbent on these random ass planets to the point where you start bombing planets inhabited by sentient beings.
Also, Ira Steven Behr is an edgelord on purpouse, and put up these kinds of divisions and polemics just to make Star Trek not a utopia. Any dilemmas are made just to push established visionary boundries, just to make a “no paradise is attainable” point.
10·19 hours agoIt’s the economist.
Why did they not check how well privatization worked out in the UK’s rail, where one of the Labour policies had been to re-nationalise the railways since the current privatised model sucks so fucking bad?
there’s several interviews, and he sounds quite normal
every single rush album is different and a banger. Great to the end
we need a copy of the actual recording
did they have the 4000cc implants?
(I can’t find the post I’m making a reference to)
self expression, calling people out, making better people, making a better community.
There will still be the occasional anime where the “10yo girl is a 1000 yo dragon so it’s totally okay” BS.
I mean, people like voyager and the main character pairing is between Jar Jar Binks and his “3 year old, but it’s cool man, their species only live to be 7 and the actress is of age” girlfriend.
3·2 days agoyour op :
140k deaths related to renewable energy accidents (hydro, wind, geothermal)
Then :
The chinese claim only 26k deaths some estimates place it at 260k deaths i’m not being exact its a ballpark. No one source tracks all deaths from renewables or fossil fuels or nuclear. 52 dams collapsed not one.
~130k people died directly from this event. The other ~10k is a rough estimate on other deaths from similar incidents
So now, the claim has gone from all renewable sources causing 140k deaths, to just dams causing 26k or 260k + 130k from a specific event + 10k from "similar incidents.
Anywhere between 166k to 400k for hydro, which is more than 140. At this rate, wind and geothermal are CAUSING between 26k and 260k births.
And then you threw up some graph where it shows that hydro makes up about a 1/3rd of power generation from renewables, and claimed non-hydro was responsable for 50% of renewable energy generation, which has no bearing on the number of deaths you’re talking abut.
And now you’re throwing an attack on me claiming I said things about nuclear, when I have done no such thing.
Are you all good? Everything fine at home?
how dare you disrespect the delicious Şiş Köfte?
I will give you a taste of my shoe.