The results of female national elite athletes even indicate that the strength level attainable by extremely high training will rarely surpass the 50th percentile of untrained or not specifically trained men.
They called my claim that men have a significant advantage over women when it comes to strenght a made-up fact so I backed it up with evidence as requested.
They called my claim that men have a significant advantage over women when it comes to strenght a made-up fact so I backed it up with evidence as requested.
Hmm, on re-reading I can see that as being part of what was asked. However, you wrote this,
This isn’t about not wanting trans people in the sports and you know it. It’s about the unfair advantage they have over biological women.
Men have a significant advantage over women when it comes to strenght and speed and in most (but not all) cases this applies to trans women as well.
So I think the real ask is for evidence that post-transition trans women are stronger than cis women. To reiterate, I think the points now requiring evidence are these statements (edited by me for clarity):
It’s about the unfair advantage … trans people in the sports … have over biological women.
… trans women … have a significant advantage over … cis … women when it comes to strength and speed and in most (but not all) cases
I do note that you state that this is not true in all cases btw, so also interested in hearing what you think the exception is (that is, what are those cases where trans women, particularly trans women in sports, do not have an unfair or significant advantage over cis women when it comes to strength and speed).
also interested in hearing what you think the exception is
It would be a statistical miracle if every single trans woman was stronger than every biological woman. I’m confident in claiming that most are but I’d never claim that there’s no exceptions. Depends on many things such as biological diversity, how long ago they transitioned and what drugs they’re taking just to name a few.
A women’s competition is held and a trans woman wins. What’s the problem?
It’s not but once we start seeing a trend of the winners and record holders being trans more often than not it starts becoming a problem. It’s not fair for the biological women.
The best data is from military recruits, and there are a couple of recent studies, one published in 2020 and one in 2023. They looked at cis men, cis women, trans man and trans women. How many steps you can do in a minute, how many push ups you can do in a minute, and how fast you can run 1.5 miles. And what they found in that study was that trans women remained faster for up to two years after the initiation of gender affirming hormone therapy. At four years, trans women continued to do more sit ups and push ups.
If it’s not a problem why are we talking about it?
Exactly.
The competitions were open to women. All women. What is the problem if women win?
None that I can see.
What is the problem if trans women take all the records?
This would kinda imply that maybe it makes sense to start talking about new categories. Kinda like how we already have different weight classes in wrestling. But I doubt it would happen, if you look at the studies from the NPR article by the OC,
After 2 years of taking feminising hormones, the push-up and sit-up differences disappeared
transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression
9% isn’t that much of an advantage, and it could go down further as time goes on (as the raw data sorta hints at), just maybe the study wasn’t running for long enough.
And this doesn’t apply to all trans folks. Do remember,
Dr. Bradley Anawalt, an endocrinologist and professor of medicine at the University of Washington, said there appears to be no competitive advantage between boys and girls before they undergo puberty around the ages of 11 or 12.
So a trans woman who transitioned before puberty has no competitive advantage worth talking about, and a trans woman who transitions after puberty just needs time to lose the extra muscle before the competitive advantage disappears.
Finally, keep in mind that even for those that are recent post-puberty transitions, they still don’t perform as well as cis men, so it definitely does not make sense to include them in there.
Meanwhile, transmen on average outperform cis men,
After 1 year of taking masculinising hormones, there was no longer a difference in push-ups or run times, and the number of sit-ups performed in 1 min by transmen exceeded the average performance of their male counterparts.
Everything suggests to me that there’s no problem and we’ve split up the categories in the right ways, at worst it’s perhaps just a matter of tweaking this statement, “1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events” to a slightly longer time period.
What is the problem if trans women take all the records?
By definition that then means that if you are born a woman then you can forget all your dreams about becoming a competitive athlete because those roles are reserved for the ones that were born a male.
also interested in hearing what you think the exception is
It would be a statistical miracle if every single trans woman was stronger than every biological woman.
but I’d never claim that there’s no exceptions
Ok, that’s fair.
I’m confident in claiming that most are
Right, but that’s what the other commenters were waiting for supporting research on, I believe.
The best data is from military recruits, and there are a couple of recent studies, one published in 2020 and one in 2023. They looked at cis men, cis women, trans man and trans women. How many steps you can do in a minute, how many push ups you can do in a minute, and how fast you can run 1.5 miles. And what they found in that study was that trans women remained faster for up to two years after the initiation of gender affirming hormone therapy. At four years, trans women continued to do more sit ups and push ups.
This is what happens when you google something to support your made-up fact, rather than base your argument on the research.
Your claim was that this applies to most, but not all trans women. Your link provides literally zero support of that.
This bad faith, scientifically illiterate shit is why people are generally inclined to dismiss you as spewing ignorant bar talk and move on without trying to change your mind. Your stance wasn’t set based on current, relevant research and therefore isn’t likely to be changed by it.
If you want to get pedantic, you have to figure out how to be accurate. Breaking a sentence into bullet points doesn’t make it separate claims. The word “and” means that for the sentence to be true, all of the components must be. You made one claim, with multiple aspects and evidence that does not support 2/3 of them at all.
I think the other user had it right, so I’m going to steal this one: stay ignorant friendo
The best data is from military recruits, and there are a couple of recent studies, one published in 2020 and one in 2023. They looked at cis men, cis women, trans man and trans women. How many steps you can do in a minute, how many push ups you can do in a minute, and how fast you can run 1.5 miles. And what they found in that study was that trans women remained faster for up to two years after the initiation of gender affirming hormone therapy. At four years, trans women continued to do more sit ups and push ups.
Hand-grip strength of young men, women and highly trained female athletes
As the research doesn’t cover trans athletes, it’s of limited relevance. The onus has not yet been met.
They called my claim that men have a significant advantage over women when it comes to strenght a made-up fact so I backed it up with evidence as requested.
Hmm, on re-reading I can see that as being part of what was asked. However, you wrote this,
So I think the real ask is for evidence that post-transition trans women are stronger than cis women. To reiterate, I think the points now requiring evidence are these statements (edited by me for clarity):
I do note that you state that this is not true in all cases btw, so also interested in hearing what you think the exception is (that is, what are those cases where trans women, particularly trans women in sports, do not have an unfair or significant advantage over cis women when it comes to strength and speed).
It would be a statistical miracle if every single trans woman was stronger than every biological woman. I’m confident in claiming that most are but I’d never claim that there’s no exceptions. Depends on many things such as biological diversity, how long ago they transitioned and what drugs they’re taking just to name a few.
People have jumped all over you on the science, of transition and the physical difference between cis and trans women.
But I want to ask a different question.
A women’s competition is held and a trans woman wins. What’s the problem?
A woman won a woman’s competition. Why is this a problem?
It’s not but once we start seeing a trend of the winners and record holders being trans more often than not it starts becoming a problem. It’s not fair for the biological women.
Source
If it’s not a problem why are we talking about it?
What is the problem if trans women take all the records?
The competitions were open to women. All women. What is the problem if women win?
Exactly.
None that I can see.
This would kinda imply that maybe it makes sense to start talking about new categories. Kinda like how we already have different weight classes in wrestling. But I doubt it would happen, if you look at the studies from the NPR article by the OC,
9% isn’t that much of an advantage, and it could go down further as time goes on (as the raw data sorta hints at), just maybe the study wasn’t running for long enough.
And this doesn’t apply to all trans folks. Do remember,
So a trans woman who transitioned before puberty has no competitive advantage worth talking about, and a trans woman who transitions after puberty just needs time to lose the extra muscle before the competitive advantage disappears.
Finally, keep in mind that even for those that are recent post-puberty transitions, they still don’t perform as well as cis men, so it definitely does not make sense to include them in there.
Meanwhile, transmen on average outperform cis men,
Everything suggests to me that there’s no problem and we’ve split up the categories in the right ways, at worst it’s perhaps just a matter of tweaking this statement, “1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events” to a slightly longer time period.
By definition that then means that if you are born a woman then you can forget all your dreams about becoming a competitive athlete because those roles are reserved for the ones that were born a male.
Ok, that’s fair.
Right, but that’s what the other commenters were waiting for supporting research on, I believe.
Source
This is what happens when you google something to support your made-up fact, rather than base your argument on the research.
Your claim was that this applies to most, but not all trans women. Your link provides literally zero support of that.
This bad faith, scientifically illiterate shit is why people are generally inclined to dismiss you as spewing ignorant bar talk and move on without trying to change your mind. Your stance wasn’t set based on current, relevant research and therefore isn’t likely to be changed by it.
I made three claims and you called it all made-up facts.
If you want to get pedantic, you have to figure out how to be accurate. Breaking a sentence into bullet points doesn’t make it separate claims. The word “and” means that for the sentence to be true, all of the components must be. You made one claim, with multiple aspects and evidence that does not support 2/3 of them at all.
I think the other user had it right, so I’m going to steal this one: stay ignorant friendo
Source