There is a legitimate reason to not want Chinese government subsidized cars to undercut American auto makers, but it’s also correct to say that American automakers can’t compete with Chinese automakers right now even if they were in a similar cost footing.
It’s hard to feel bad when GM intentionally killed electrics back in the 90s, the ship where America leads the world in EV production may have already sailed then. We may yet see the American auto industry have its Kodak moment.
There’s no reason to be protective over the auto industry. The years where auto plants could transition to weapons fabrication are over; the manufacturing process has become specialized to chase efficiency. If anything, it’s justice should American car brands go out of business, because they were subsidized and propped up time and time again and stole the money given to them to afford innovation. Most recently in 2010, when American cars lost in the marketplace because they didn’t match hybrid efficiency, they simply did not meet or exceed their competition. Instead, they sat on their asses, took the bailouts, and the Japanese sold better cars. Now, Japanese cars are losing to Chinese cars, while still maintaining superiority over American cars.
Anecdotally, the newest gen Ford Bronco, Explorer, and F150 ICE cars are terrible. I got to daily drive all of them while my Lightning was in the shop for repairs because they couldn’t loan an EV. Those cars were noisy, slow, awfully designed interiors, inefficient, and just plain cost more than the competition.
Same in Germany. Took the money, took subsidies and did nothing to innovate. Now they earn to get out of business (but we’re fucked since the state owns some of it and made us dependant).
I remember that very well. Doesn’t change anything about the ID.Polo being a great car for a competitive price tag. Chinese cars in Europe aren’t much better priced.
Fair point, I can agree on different opinion here. For me with that VW is not a company I will do any (direct) business with, as in deal breaker. In contrast to the US we also have not been reimbursed any loss (which I coincidentally directly had, selling a diesel).
America has a toxic masculinity problem. Americans keep buying giant trucks and SUV and Jeeps. GM did put out some legit hybrids and EVs like Volt, Bolt EV, EUVs. But didn’t sell enough. So we are stuck with shitty gas guzzling cars that keeps getting bigger and bigger.
Yeah the “manly dude” starter pack’s cornerstone is a f-150 or silverado. It’s just a baseline requirement.
Also though, mom has to have a canyonero to get groceries and shuttle the kids because “mama bear needs to keep her kids safe from all those giant cars out there”.
I don’t even drive anymore, but I hate the American insistence on BIG vehicles. I loved my Prius, Prius V and Civics. They were all great cars. My kids have an older Fit and it’s a fantastic little car. If only it came in electric!! Or was sold at ALL in the USA, ffs
American vehicles are way too big even by my standards, but the cars you listed, I would have a hard time getting into or out of the rear seat. Gotta be at least mid-size and up for me.
For starters the 300,000+ people employed by those two companies (Chevy is GM). Perhaps you meant to include Stellantis (Chrysler) which would make that number closer to 600,000 people. The auto industry was a big driver of the 2008 crash.
That’s before we even start to get into the issues stemming from a Chinese monopoly on the auto industry. What happens if American, Japanese, and European auto makers go out of business and then China stops the subsidies? We will literally be in the same situation we are now but with money going to China instead of paying domestic workers.
Idk, as I said before sounds like everyone Big Mad because China is better at capitalism than the west. We could easily sell vehicles for cheaper costs by producing closer to local markets and making simpler cars. But then the corps wouldn’t keep their over inflated stock prices.
Ford and GM are only a fraction of the auto industry in the US. The majority of sales are foreign brands, but none of them can compete as companies against the entire nation of China and its willingness to put them all out of business and takeover said auto industry. They own the mines, materials, and labor and have bottomless pockets to subsidize their vehicles and dell them well below cost.
How is any company supposed to compete against that?
By maybe not massively inflating the price of their cars and manufacturing their vehicles closer to local markets? Like idk what to tell you, it just sounds like youre mad because china is better at capitalism lol
How much should these cars be selling for then? Can you give me a breakdown with your expert knowledge? Can you also explain why it is that every automaker in the world outside of China is participating in this alleged price fixing scheme rather than undercutting each other?
How many cars are being built far outside their local markets? What ones specifically? How much is this adding to the cost of these vehicles?
Lol this is a very naive, internet-brained take. Have you actually driven all these cars along with their Chinese counterparts? What makes every non-Chinese car suck so badly exactly? Is it because they’re not selling $60k cars for $15k?
Who wants 60k car full of surveillance and badly designed tech?
Slate had the right idea, but Bezos is involved, so we will see.
But every major brand has lost the plot a decade ago, they all took massive amounts of money from government and did fuck all with it and gobbled each other up. Now they act shocked that people prefer anything other than the 6 brands that remained.
I agree that Slate has an interesting idea but they have an uphill battle with the marketing. Unfortunately, the US, to a great extent, particularly the rural US, sees electric cars as being “more tech”, which they equate with more frustration. Naturally EVs actually could likely have simpler computer systems than ICE cars, but, for instance Tesla chose to slap a huge iPad in their cars when consumers want dials.
For all the technical superiority of EVs, it’s hard to convince the average person that they should drive a novel looking “high-tech” vehicle, when a Toyota Camry is an easily available, affordable option. Most people with F150s don’t need them, they want them. Slate isn’t competing for those people, it’s competing for the people who buy Impreza’s, Corollas, and Camrys. I’m not sure it’ll work out.
For an industrial on-site work truck for running errands, I’d bet they sell like hot cakes, but that’s a much smaller market.
There is a legitimate reason to not want Chinese government subsidized cars to undercut American auto makers, but it’s also correct to say that American automakers can’t compete with Chinese automakers right now even if they were in a similar cost footing.
It’s hard to feel bad when GM intentionally killed electrics back in the 90s, the ship where America leads the world in EV production may have already sailed then. We may yet see the American auto industry have its Kodak moment.
We’ve tried nothing and we are all out of ideas
There’s no reason to be protective over the auto industry. The years where auto plants could transition to weapons fabrication are over; the manufacturing process has become specialized to chase efficiency. If anything, it’s justice should American car brands go out of business, because they were subsidized and propped up time and time again and stole the money given to them to afford innovation. Most recently in 2010, when American cars lost in the marketplace because they didn’t match hybrid efficiency, they simply did not meet or exceed their competition. Instead, they sat on their asses, took the bailouts, and the Japanese sold better cars. Now, Japanese cars are losing to Chinese cars, while still maintaining superiority over American cars.
Anecdotally, the newest gen Ford Bronco, Explorer, and F150 ICE cars are terrible. I got to daily drive all of them while my Lightning was in the shop for repairs because they couldn’t loan an EV. Those cars were noisy, slow, awfully designed interiors, inefficient, and just plain cost more than the competition.
Same in Germany. Took the money, took subsidies and did nothing to innovate. Now they earn to get out of business (but we’re fucked since the state owns some of it and made us dependant).
That is not entirely true. The new VW ID.Polo is a very nice new compact EV for a reasonable price for example.
Do you remember how vw betrayed us and the environment? You might argue everyone did that, which is true. Does not make it better though.
Too little too late.
I remember that very well. Doesn’t change anything about the ID.Polo being a great car for a competitive price tag. Chinese cars in Europe aren’t much better priced.
Fair point, I can agree on different opinion here. For me with that VW is not a company I will do any (direct) business with, as in deal breaker. In contrast to the US we also have not been reimbursed any loss (which I coincidentally directly had, selling a diesel).
Fair point as well.
If I were in Germany, I’d buy a Chinese car without even thinking about it.
America has a toxic masculinity problem. Americans keep buying giant trucks and SUV and Jeeps. GM did put out some legit hybrids and EVs like Volt, Bolt EV, EUVs. But didn’t sell enough. So we are stuck with shitty gas guzzling cars that keeps getting bigger and bigger.
Yeah the “manly dude” starter pack’s cornerstone is a f-150 or silverado. It’s just a baseline requirement.
Also though, mom has to have a canyonero to get groceries and shuttle the kids because “mama bear needs to keep her kids safe from all those giant cars out there”.
I don’t even drive anymore, but I hate the American insistence on BIG vehicles. I loved my Prius, Prius V and Civics. They were all great cars. My kids have an older Fit and it’s a fantastic little car. If only it came in electric!! Or was sold at ALL in the USA, ffs
American vehicles are way too big even by my standards, but the cars you listed, I would have a hard time getting into or out of the rear seat. Gotta be at least mid-size and up for me.
It’s nuts how the phrase “Kodak moment” has changed.
Can you give me that legitimate reason beyond hurting poor Ford Chevy and GM’s pockets?
For starters the 300,000+ people employed by those two companies (Chevy is GM). Perhaps you meant to include Stellantis (Chrysler) which would make that number closer to 600,000 people. The auto industry was a big driver of the 2008 crash.
That’s before we even start to get into the issues stemming from a Chinese monopoly on the auto industry. What happens if American, Japanese, and European auto makers go out of business and then China stops the subsidies? We will literally be in the same situation we are now but with money going to China instead of paying domestic workers.
So what.
Protecting them from china and bailing them out multiple times hasn’t done anything.
It’s almost like poorly run businesses SHOULD FAIL.
Are we a free market capitalist society or not?
Idk, as I said before sounds like everyone Big Mad because China is better at capitalism than the west. We could easily sell vehicles for cheaper costs by producing closer to local markets and making simpler cars. But then the corps wouldn’t keep their over inflated stock prices.
I agree, western automakers could easily lower prices.
Get rid of unions
Lower wages in auto manufacturing AND every industry in the supply chain (mining, etc).
Every country that manufactures cars needs to mine and produce its own materials (may need to create more humans to work these industries)
The engineers and designers at BYD make less money than assembly line workers in Germany or the US.
Yes, and? They’ve been propped up by the USA govt for decades. If they can’t compete with China or Japan, that’s their own damned fault.
America’s somehow STILL in the fucking around phase.
Ford and GM are only a fraction of the auto industry in the US. The majority of sales are foreign brands, but none of them can compete as companies against the entire nation of China and its willingness to put them all out of business and takeover said auto industry. They own the mines, materials, and labor and have bottomless pockets to subsidize their vehicles and dell them well below cost.
How is any company supposed to compete against that?
By maybe not massively inflating the price of their cars and manufacturing their vehicles closer to local markets? Like idk what to tell you, it just sounds like youre mad because china is better at capitalism lol
How much should these cars be selling for then? Can you give me a breakdown with your expert knowledge? Can you also explain why it is that every automaker in the world outside of China is participating in this alleged price fixing scheme rather than undercutting each other?
How many cars are being built far outside their local markets? What ones specifically? How much is this adding to the cost of these vehicles?
Let’s see some actual facts.
Make better products?
Like every car from not China sucks hard, but they keep going on about prices.
None of them ever tried to make good cars.
Then yoy can get comparatively better cars for much cheaper? It’s not like you have much of a choice.
Lol this is a very naive, internet-brained take. Have you actually driven all these cars along with their Chinese counterparts? What makes every non-Chinese car suck so badly exactly? Is it because they’re not selling $60k cars for $15k?
Who wants 60k car full of surveillance and badly designed tech?
Slate had the right idea, but Bezos is involved, so we will see.
But every major brand has lost the plot a decade ago, they all took massive amounts of money from government and did fuck all with it and gobbled each other up. Now they act shocked that people prefer anything other than the 6 brands that remained.
I agree that Slate has an interesting idea but they have an uphill battle with the marketing. Unfortunately, the US, to a great extent, particularly the rural US, sees electric cars as being “more tech”, which they equate with more frustration. Naturally EVs actually could likely have simpler computer systems than ICE cars, but, for instance Tesla chose to slap a huge iPad in their cars when consumers want dials.
For all the technical superiority of EVs, it’s hard to convince the average person that they should drive a novel looking “high-tech” vehicle, when a Toyota Camry is an easily available, affordable option. Most people with F150s don’t need them, they want them. Slate isn’t competing for those people, it’s competing for the people who buy Impreza’s, Corollas, and Camrys. I’m not sure it’ll work out.
For an industrial on-site work truck for running errands, I’d bet they sell like hot cakes, but that’s a much smaller market.
From your lips to Milton Friedman’s ears…