Eh, both are proper spelling, I don’t think any Russian manual said it’s mandatory. The ë is used mainly in dictionaries, Russian schoolbooks, etc. where ambiguity should be minimal.
It’s also used by people who respect the language and don’t want to see it gradually turn into a shitshow like English where it’s spelled ‘Manchester’, pronounced ‘Liverpool’.
Russian won’t turn into a shitshow because of people not using ë, that’s catastrophism. No language has turned into a shitshow, for that matter, English functions well too.
What is the thing that’s supposed to happen? You said English already is a ‘shitshow’ (not a thing that could’ve happened in our lifetime, but long ago), but it isn’t a shitshow, and that’s what I responded to, so you’re moving the topic here.
I wonder how a person with such a great love to his rodnoй яzõk , can have no interest in it at all (or how any languages work in modern standards) , meanwhile commenting stupid shit like this.
For better or worse, I’ve been reading almost exclusively in English for years, but also listening to English audiobooks wherein I learned a lot of new things about words that I’ve seen before. That’s precisely why I’ve become more entrenched in my belief that ‘ё’ shouldn’t be optional. And use it myself always.
If you had read books in Russian, you’d notice that basically no Russian writer after Karamzin (who IIRC proposed the ë letter himself) “respected” the Russian language enough to use the letter. It’s legitimate for you to use it (all the better for me as a foreign speaker), but it’s not something to act elitist about.
Whether Russian will go in the direction of English depends on how its pronunciation develops, for now it’s still pretty close to the spelling, although there are words and forms such as “моего, сегодня” that are pronounced as “моево, севодня”. I wonder how many people would support changing this spelling.
In no way am I elitist about it. I’m just opposed to the language moving away from being phonemic, and am rather alarmist about that prospect, even though I know full well that the pronunciation will drift away while the spelling stays conservative.
‘его’ is at least a typical consistent rule, mapping to the pronunciation ‘ево’ in the same places in various words, just like ‘eau’ in French. But the replacement of ‘ё’ with ‘е’ is just egregious violation of a letter that has its own sound, without any reason for that.
I think that equating respect for language with usage of the letter and vague guilt-tripping of people who don’t use it is elitist.
the replacement of ‘ё’ with ‘е’
It’s the other way around, actually, ‘e’ is the original letter and sound, the sound changed by the 18th century or so (as far as I’m aware) and then the modified letter was proposed but never made generally mandatory. People aren’t replacing anything, they’re writing same as always.
‘его’ is at least a typical consistent rule, mapping to the pronunciation ‘ево’ in the same places in various words
The name Егор doesn’t follow it, but моего and сегодня do. Why? You have to explain the etymology of сегодня at the very least to make sense of it, undermining the consistency.
equating respect for language with usage of the letter and vague guilt-tripping of people who don’t use it is elitist
Indeed, anyone using ‘q’ is better than others.
Oh wait, could you please check real quick if ‘ё’, a letter of the alphabet taught in school, maps unambiguously to a specific sound?
the modified letter was proposed but never made generally mandatory
Well maybe it was proposed because ‘ё’ denotes a very particular sound? Which, notably, Western languages can never quite approximate with their feeble ‘yo’ attempts, though Nordic languages do have a vaguely similar ‘ø’ or somesuch.
The name Егор doesn’t follow it, but моего and сегодня do. Why?
Well, perhaps because the letters are in a different position? Why is /ˈlɔɹəns/ of Arabia not pronounced akin to /ˈsɛsəl/ B. Demille?
Eh, both are proper spelling, I don’t think any Russian manual said it’s mandatory. The ë is used mainly in dictionaries, Russian schoolbooks, etc. where ambiguity should be minimal.
It’s also used by people who respect the language and don’t want to see it gradually turn into a shitshow like English where it’s spelled ‘Manchester’, pronounced ‘Liverpool’.
That’s how zero-understanding of linguistics looks like .
It’s not like what he said isn’t true or actually correct. That’s actually comprehending how languages work.
Russian won’t turn into a shitshow because of people not using ë, that’s catastrophism. No language has turned into a shitshow, for that matter, English functions well too.
“I haven’t seen thing happen during my lifetime, therefore thing doesn’t happen.”
What is the thing that’s supposed to happen? You said English already is a ‘shitshow’ (not a thing that could’ve happened in our lifetime, but long ago), but it isn’t a shitshow, and that’s what I responded to, so you’re moving the topic here.
Sure, Ḿäřṭṯı, sure.
I wonder how a person with such a great love to his rodnoй яzõk , can have no interest in it at all (or how any languages work in modern standards) , meanwhile commenting stupid shit like this.
deleted by creator
Well, it doesn’t matter what I write, does it? Why would I care then how it works?
When was the last time you read a book which used ë regularly (as in, not just in cases as distinguishing все-всё)?
For better or worse, I’ve been reading almost exclusively in English for years, but also listening to English audiobooks wherein I learned a lot of new things about words that I’ve seen before. That’s precisely why I’ve become more entrenched in my belief that ‘ё’ shouldn’t be optional. And use it myself always.
If you had read books in Russian, you’d notice that basically no Russian writer after Karamzin (who IIRC proposed the ë letter himself) “respected” the Russian language enough to use the letter. It’s legitimate for you to use it (all the better for me as a foreign speaker), but it’s not something to act elitist about.
Whether Russian will go in the direction of English depends on how its pronunciation develops, for now it’s still pretty close to the spelling, although there are words and forms such as “моего, сегодня” that are pronounced as “моево, севодня”. I wonder how many people would support changing this spelling.
In no way am I elitist about it. I’m just opposed to the language moving away from being phonemic, and am rather alarmist about that prospect, even though I know full well that the pronunciation will drift away while the spelling stays conservative.
‘его’ is at least a typical consistent rule, mapping to the pronunciation ‘ево’ in the same places in various words, just like ‘eau’ in French. But the replacement of ‘ё’ with ‘е’ is just egregious violation of a letter that has its own sound, without any reason for that.
I think that equating respect for language with usage of the letter and vague guilt-tripping of people who don’t use it is elitist.
It’s the other way around, actually, ‘e’ is the original letter and sound, the sound changed by the 18th century or so (as far as I’m aware) and then the modified letter was proposed but never made generally mandatory. People aren’t replacing anything, they’re writing same as always.
The name Егор doesn’t follow it, but моего and сегодня do. Why? You have to explain the etymology of сегодня at the very least to make sense of it, undermining the consistency.
Indeed, anyone using ‘q’ is better than others.
Oh wait, could you please check real quick if ‘ё’, a letter of the alphabet taught in school, maps unambiguously to a specific sound?
Well maybe it was proposed because ‘ё’ denotes a very particular sound? Which, notably, Western languages can never quite approximate with their feeble ‘yo’ attempts, though Nordic languages do have a vaguely similar ‘ø’ or somesuch.
Well, perhaps because the letters are in a different position? Why is /ˈlɔɹəns/ of Arabia not pronounced akin to /ˈsɛsəl/ B. Demille?
So yeah, you haven’t really responded to the statement that your position is elitist, or at least smartassery that no linguist actually supports.
Indeed. And then it wasn’t made generally mandatory, and then the Russian language continued to work fine.
Why would that be remotely notable here? We’re talking about Russian spelling of Russian language.
And what is that position that makes the difference?
Fair enough. I tend to use it because it just reduces scanning ambiguity when reading text quickly.