In an attempt to better understand Lemmy I’m wondering if some of you can shed a light on what the deal is between.ml and .world. The history, any significant event or a betrayal, how did we all run away from spez only to come here and throw mud at each other?
I’m sure it confuses a great deal of Reddit refugees who just signed up with the largest instance because of (in my case future proofing) reasons.
I’m wondering how this historic feud came to be and how I can be called a “Zionist” just because of my instance, and they are called “fascists” even though I’ve come across some pretty levelheaded people from that instance too.
Please, keep it civil!
I’m not trying to start a fight or mud slinging, it would be good if several people could say their piece and nobody shame or attack them for it no matter how much you disagree.
Thanks
They’re not communists. They’re tankies: nationalistic authoritarians who defend police state brutality and “alternative facts” to spread disinformation courtesy of Russia and China. They’re obsessed with a west vs east tribalism and nationalism.
Also, I don’t think you mean liberals strictly, but socialists — demsoc, socdem, anarchists, whatever.
Anarchists don’t respect nation states or arbitrary class divisions, which clashes hard with tankies’ rabid nationalism.
i don’t see it as east/west tribalism or nationalism at play, it’s generally people identifying what they see as a lesser evil in the situation. when it’s not interactions with hostile liberals i see plenty of earnest discussion in these spaces, literally ‘putin is someone lenin would have had shot’.
for me if i’m referring to liberals it’s anyone with a reformist orientation towards capitalism. if people are pushing that then they are more likely to compromise on important issues if given any individual power
MLs share my analysis of capitalism and imperialism. i can have disagreements with them about organization and process while agreeing on the fundamentals. plus they won’t call the cops on me.
with liberals half the time i’m arguing about whether capitalism is even the problem, or having to point out to them that war is actually bad. that’s a much bigger gap than disagreeing about revolutionary strategy.
You seem to constantly be ignoring the fact that tankies are specifically hypocrites about it. We all KNOW tankies will say left wing opinions in the general sense.
The problem is they don’t apply leftist morals to EVERYONE. They have pet beliefs and often a favorite communist/anarchist dictator that they’ll actively defend.
Why would you even care about the opinions of someone that cannot understand that supporting any dictator basically by definition removes you from many ideologies of the left??
We shouldn’t suffer hypocrites. If something is bad because the act is bad, it’s bad when ANYONE does it. Period.
We can discuss what bad acts may be necessary to recover things from the tyrants in charge and the worthiness of such acts, but to pretend that things like indiscriminate mass murder and open war are somehow good actually is to completely fail the moral test, IMO.
Basically… they’re people who fail the logic of, “two wrongs don’t make a right”. Or a more direct expression, “the ends don’t justify the means”.
They’re exactly like conservatives in that they don’t care about others and are actually glad when the “correct” people are hurt.
Having strong opinions about reforming vs overthrowing capitalism doesn’t make you a tankie. Apologetics for state violence and Russian and Chinese totalitarianism certainly does; just as defending Israeli wrongdoing makes you a Zionist; and defending Trump makes you a fascist, etc.
isn’t this just the tribalism that you were just complaining about? every state is authoritarian and has plenty state violence, if i’m going to have issues with that it’s going to be with the states i actually live in.
not wanting to engage with propaganda narratives about state enemies from my own state doesn’t mean it’s automatically a defense of what other states are doing
No. I don’t care about any nation state, only about the badness of dictatorships. Tankies defend Russian and Chinese dictatorships in particular.
Interestingly, they don’t defend (and often even condemn) other dictatorships. This is a feature of their tribalistic ideology and a product of propaganda. Concepts like “state enemies” are meaningless to me. I apply moral rules universally to all people and hold their behaviors to the same standard, regardless of their imaginary nation.
One last thing. Russia’s favorite propaganda is that everyone lies and democracy is impossible because state violence is universal. They don’t deny their wrongdoing (the way China does), they embrace it with whataboutism. Saying “all states have violence” is meaningless. Of course all statehood is based in violence. Yet clearly Taiwan and China have very different approaches.
To whit, I have no rights in China. They could literally disappear me for this comment.
then we share a position that all states are bad; i have particular ire for ones that are outright dictatorships of capital. that includes the US, all of its allies and some of its enemies.
i live in the US, so i am going to be loudest about about what my state is doing internally and what it’s sponsoring abroad. i am going to treat the propaganda narratives it produces about its enemies with suspicion, and that should not be construed with ‘defending’ anything.
it often does though.
No you libtard! Marx wanted name calling and calls for slaughter of entire nations.
Remember, ever threatening and ever weak and disgusting enemy is the base idea behind communism.
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What of authoritarian? Can you give examples of states that aren’t?
Russia’s favorite propaganda is to claim that democracy is impossible because state violence is universal. They don’t deny their own wrongdoing (the way China does): they embrace it with whataboutism.
Saying “all states are authoritarian” is meaningless. Of course all statehood is based in violence. Yet clearly citizens of Taiwan and China have different relationships with their governments.
To whit, I have no rights in China. They could disappear me for this one comment.
Hysteria isn’t a good look. Unless your family are wealthy corrupt.