Okay let’s see. We have a large part of the population who just won’t vote. Voter apathy is real.
Of the Democrats and Republicans, you have about 2/3 of each party that are voting like it’s a sports team. They’ll never change and they’ll never think.
The thinking people who vote for each party understand that the third party has no chance and they’re trying to sway things generally in their direction.
So the third party victory plan, if I have it correct, is to overcome voter apathy, and also to sway some people who are voting like a sports team from both parties.
If that’s your plan for victory, then you don’t have a plan for victory. And you’re just wasting your vote.
Call me cynical, but I think third parties are funded by people outside the country to sway the election. Just like they only thaw out Jill Stein every 4 years to steal votes from the Democrats, and then they park her in a Russian freezer somewhere for the rest of the time.
Part of building a viable alternative is getting enough votes for consistant ballot access and other resources that are afforded by default to the two primary parties. Winning comes in degrees.
Yet Jill Stein vanishes for four years between Presidential elections and does absolutely nothing to support a third party coalition at the state and local level.
And she somehow deserves your vote for simply not being a D or R? Yeah nah.
Your unawareness concerning her activites during non-election years sounds like a you problem. She is a regular presence at major state-level annual Green conventions.
Idk about your state, but that is the case here in MD with Greens and the Working Class Party. Also true for the Working Families Party in other states. Presidential elections have a purpose in generating attention, though.
I’m not sure I fully understood that . But the first step in any change is ranked choice voting. If we had that then we could do three parties or more.
As it stands, we’ve devolved into a two-party system and neither party will give up control.
Vote 3rd party, argue with dumbshits that refuse to vote third party because of their self defeating “they can’t win” Ouroboros and try and get them to see that the only reason they “can’t” win is because of that very attitude, but if they did get the votes they could, in fact, win. Y’know stuff like that.
Not sure if you caught my other post, but that’s not a move. More than half of Democrat voters vote like it’s their sports team. It’s their default. It’s not a move.
Your path to success requires them all to change their mind in a coordinated fashion.
Can you see why I don’t think that would ever work?
The ONLY chance the US had for a third party was back when Teddy Roosevelt ran in the Bull Moose party. He was already a president with a major party and wanted another run but the party didn’t like his socialist agenda. (I’m simplifying)
If he would have won, we probably would still have a 2 party system. 1 of the parties would have adapted to the Bull Moose party.
We need to elect people that will support the change to RCV. Dems seem more favorable to this.
The problem is that you’re relying on “vote blue and hope they give us electoral reform out of the kindness of their hearts.” It’s not a real strategy. Dems have a clear incentive to not enact voting reform, because they survive off of being the lesser evil and effectively coercing people into voting for them. And if you say that we should vote for Dems conditionally to them (genuinely) supporting RCV, that’s one thing, but if you’re just supporting them regardless then any ideas you have about RCV are meaningless because in practice those ideas aren’t affecting your actions in any way.
It’s like seeing that your car won’t to start and thinking the solution is to drive it to the mechanic. The whole problem is that you can’t drive it anywhere. In the same way, the whole reason we need electoral reform is the same thing that prevents it from happening, that we don’t have any mechanism for advancing policy goals in the current system. You can’t rely on a broken system to fix itself.
What we need is to realize that the current system is FUBAR and organize non-electoral strategies (for example, strikes and demonstrations) to advance policy positions, and we need a dedicated party that’s focused on that strategy and able to lay out a clear platform to that end.
What’s your source for your claim that it is literally impossible for a third party to ever be viable again?
And if that is truly the case, we don’t even live in a democracy so why bother?
Personally I’ll keep voting for the best candidates I can while acknowledging that voting does almost nothing and doing everything I can outside of elections to make change happen.
Which third party has a chance to actually win or do something and isn’t just throwing your vote out?
All of them, complain about non-voters not voters.
Okay let’s see. We have a large part of the population who just won’t vote. Voter apathy is real.
Of the Democrats and Republicans, you have about 2/3 of each party that are voting like it’s a sports team. They’ll never change and they’ll never think.
The thinking people who vote for each party understand that the third party has no chance and they’re trying to sway things generally in their direction.
So the third party victory plan, if I have it correct, is to overcome voter apathy, and also to sway some people who are voting like a sports team from both parties.
If that’s your plan for victory, then you don’t have a plan for victory. And you’re just wasting your vote.
Call me cynical, but I think third parties are funded by people outside the country to sway the election. Just like they only thaw out Jill Stein every 4 years to steal votes from the Democrats, and then they park her in a Russian freezer somewhere for the rest of the time.
Part of building a viable alternative is getting enough votes for consistant ballot access and other resources that are afforded by default to the two primary parties. Winning comes in degrees.
Yet Jill Stein vanishes for four years between Presidential elections and does absolutely nothing to support a third party coalition at the state and local level.
And she somehow deserves your vote for simply not being a D or R? Yeah nah.
She basically works for Russia.
Your unawareness concerning her activites during non-election years sounds like a you problem. She is a regular presence at major state-level annual Green conventions.
If that was really the strategy they would start with local elections.
Idk about your state, but that is the case here in MD with Greens and the Working Class Party. Also true for the Working Families Party in other states. Presidential elections have a purpose in generating attention, though.
You got me to learn something new today!
I’m not sure I fully understood that . But the first step in any change is ranked choice voting. If we had that then we could do three parties or more.
As it stands, we’ve devolved into a two-party system and neither party will give up control.
“They won’t actually fix anything but they might win” is an unbelievably terrible argument
No. It’s “which of these two horrible choices might we influence to make some progress”
You don’t get a third choice for the big things. It’s mathematically and literally impossible.
Social reality isn’t tethered to logic. A mind virus can open the possibility for a third party victory, math be damned.
We’re already past the first step where the general population is tired of the two current options.
Yeah, but hope is not a strategy. What’s the path to making that happen?
Vote 3rd party, argue with dumbshits that refuse to vote third party because of their self defeating “they can’t win” Ouroboros and try and get them to see that the only reason they “can’t” win is because of that very attitude, but if they did get the votes they could, in fact, win. Y’know stuff like that.
You’ve just described why they can’t win. Because people don’t move in coordinated ways in large numbers.
“So having said that, my advice is to move in coordinated ways in large numbers. Vote blue no matter who!”
Not sure if you caught my other post, but that’s not a move. More than half of Democrat voters vote like it’s their sports team. It’s their default. It’s not a move.
Your path to success requires them all to change their mind in a coordinated fashion.
Can you see why I don’t think that would ever work?
…are you trying to say that it’s mathematically impossible for a third party to be viable?
Because wow, the entire western world outside the US would like to have a word.
The ONLY chance the US had for a third party was back when Teddy Roosevelt ran in the Bull Moose party. He was already a president with a major party and wanted another run but the party didn’t like his socialist agenda. (I’m simplifying)
If he would have won, we probably would still have a 2 party system. 1 of the parties would have adapted to the Bull Moose party.
We need to elect people that will support the change to RCV. Dems seem more favorable to this.
The problem is that you’re relying on “vote blue and hope they give us electoral reform out of the kindness of their hearts.” It’s not a real strategy. Dems have a clear incentive to not enact voting reform, because they survive off of being the lesser evil and effectively coercing people into voting for them. And if you say that we should vote for Dems conditionally to them (genuinely) supporting RCV, that’s one thing, but if you’re just supporting them regardless then any ideas you have about RCV are meaningless because in practice those ideas aren’t affecting your actions in any way.
It’s like seeing that your car won’t to start and thinking the solution is to drive it to the mechanic. The whole problem is that you can’t drive it anywhere. In the same way, the whole reason we need electoral reform is the same thing that prevents it from happening, that we don’t have any mechanism for advancing policy goals in the current system. You can’t rely on a broken system to fix itself.
What we need is to realize that the current system is FUBAR and organize non-electoral strategies (for example, strikes and demonstrations) to advance policy positions, and we need a dedicated party that’s focused on that strategy and able to lay out a clear platform to that end.
What’s your source for your claim that it is literally impossible for a third party to ever be viable again?
And if that is truly the case, we don’t even live in a democracy so why bother?
Personally I’ll keep voting for the best candidates I can while acknowledging that voting does almost nothing and doing everything I can outside of elections to make change happen.
My source is the history of the US.
Vote for who you want and I’ll vote the same.
The history of the US that has included third parties?
Yeah, I’m going to go ahead and not believe your claims. You seem totally unable to defend them.
At any rate I’m glad we’re both voting. It’s the bare minimum we need to do.
You mean where they have ranked choice and a completely different voting system which changes the math?