Yes, and anti-communists tend to overlook the shitty things Capitalism and the US government do.
The critique cuts both ways. I don’t think either side has much of a solution… But right now - in the west - it’s clear that too much Socialism is not the problem.
The West is Cappoed out right now. Kind of tired of it.
anti-communists tend to overlook the shitty things Capitalism and the US government do
I don’t think either side has much of a solution
You are conflating not being a tankie with being an anticommunist.
Being a communist shouldn’t stop you from ciritquing your own state. A healthy communist state allows for open critique and discussion of what works and what doesn’t. Otherwise you risk autocracy.
And I would hazard calling China and Russia communist states. Russia doesn’t even call itself communist anymore. And China is a one party autocracy with a free market. They’re only communists in name.
What’s your definition of communist? For me it implies a centrally planned economy to the exclusion of any free market and is definitely at great risk to fall into autocracy. I think that kind of project is doomed from the start, so I wouldn’t call identify myself as a communist.
Those are leninist/Maoist. If we’re being generous we could call them aspirationally communist. But not actually communist.
2 defining criteria for communism is being stateless. Ie not having an governing state elected or otherwise. Definitely not having a large hierarchical unanswerable centralized government. And the other being classlessness. Something that the large central politburos preclude.
The one thing Leninism shares in the most asinine and negative way with communism. In the actual vision of communism, Marx and others theorized that the workers of the factory, etc. Should own the factory. Social ownership. However, Leninism warps and twists it negatively in that the state owns everything, not the workers. They may claim that the workers are the state. But that’s bullshit as can easily be seen by any time they put down a citizen revolt. Roll out the tanks, etc. Like Tiananmen Square.
Bingo. I lost count of how many times I had to explain to a tankie that the PRC isn’t even communist, and then they double down on trying to feed me some bullshit about how the workers supposedly own the state (because the monoparty happens to call itself communist). Like gtfo no the fuck they don’t, that’s communism in name only.
There’s never once in history been a truly communist society, unless you count early Byzantine monasteries, medieval Dithmarschen, or perhaps the ninja communes in Muromachi-era Japan (namely, the Kōka ikki and Iga ikki). Those are literally the closest things to actual communism that have ever existed, at least in recorded history.
I am not sure. I’ve never given it a concrete thought. Communism as a whole is very nebulous. I particularly like the socialist aspects and the welfare for all goals of communism. I like the dream of not having to work to survive.
But I do not like the planned economy aspect of it. I haven’t seen anyone do planned economies well. This includes non communist countries that tried it. There’s something to say about how it is impossible to create a complex web of plans that accurately and adequately account for humanity’s ever-changing needs and wants. But economics is fairly complex and I have little authority over the subject matter to say anything with confidence.
Basically - Freemarket, multi-socialist-only party system, with four strong pillars of democracy acting as checks and balances, with welfare for all.
I don’t identify as a communist in the conventional sense or any other particular label per say. But I do lean left.
I’m not really interested in defining them or getting into that kind of argument here (not being a Communist, I don’t want to defend it).
…but I believe Market Socialism is a thing. Capitalism is (in Marxist doctrine) considered a stage of Communism, and that these discussions often overlook Vietnam…
…Vietnam also has a system of Market Socialism, they’ve just almost resolved homelessness and have no housing crisis because they have a land redistribution system for anyone who wants to go into farming.
… so like, whilst I don’t like Tankies AT ALL (they all demand you read a specific 1000 book list before even having a discussion)… I do think anti-communists are also annoying and often under cooked/biased on historical facts.
To use an analogy being anti-tankie often comes across as basically saying we need to reconsider what the alt-right are saying during the Trump era… And exceedingly often comes down to “a tankie once called me a name I don’t like”.
In short - in comes across as reactionary (rather than thoughtful/legitmate). I don’t like anti-tankies because they’re having a reactionary response rather than just going “those guys are dicks, but I understand within a Capitalist society”
Instead anti-tankies go, “those guys are dicks for calling me that of all people, I’m going to form a club to complain about it… Even though billionaire crony Capitalism is really the problem right now”.
So yeah, I don’t like either of them, but I understand uptight commies better than I do the reaction to them. I can hide and block the commies pretty easily.
so like, whilst I don’t like Tankies AT ALL (they all demand your read a specific 1000 book list before even having a discussion)… I do think anti-communists are also annoying and often under cooked/biased on historical facts.
I agree.
…Vietnam also has a system of Market Socialism, they’ve just almost resolved homelessness and have no housing crisis because they have a land redistribution system for anyone who wants to go into farming.
Always assumed they did what china did. They realized that the tool to stay in power was stability and growth, so they incentivized development on the local and national level for climbing the party ladder and good boy points. But it’s nice to see them actually follow through with the ideals as well.
In short - in comes across as reactionary (rather than thoughtful/legitmate).
I understand how that can be tiring. I’ve stopped talking to anyone who purports any fascist or anti-socialist ideals. They will never listen. They are too comfortable with the power they hold to reconsider. On lemmy, I have come across far too many tankies who confuse me to no end. They come off as religious nuts who pretend to like the same ideals I do. They are in my opinion just as worse as the anti-communists.
I don’t want to be associated with them. And I think the political spectrum is far too complicated to neatly divide people into simple categories. But it’s easier to do and who has the time to actually get to know strangers online. So, as a rule, I am against any tankie or fascist.
Weirdly enough my understanding is that Vietnam were more open to Capitalism because Nixon offered them embargo free international trade. I guess both sides were sore from the Vietnam war…
…Vietnam had regional problems, which resulted in Communist Vietnam going to war with Communist Cambodia and putting an end to the Khymer Rogue and the dictatorship of Pol Pot.
Nixon still had bits of a secret sidewar going in Laos, and was looking after his legacy of opening up relations with China… So Vietnam was given more opportunities than most Communist countries are allowed.
…and other communist nations have also been to war with each other… And lots of fascism has been associated with being anti-communist.
So these are some of the topics that as a Westerner I feel liberated by learning about. They’re topics that when I learn about them it exposes limitations on our education systems, and cultural propaganda that’s still ongoing under Capitalism.
We’re taught all communism is the same, that Capitalism could never be fascist, and that profit is the point to life…
They’re topics that when I learn about them it exposes limitations on our education systems, and cultural propaganda that’s still ongoing under Capitalism.
That’s why I fucking hate when fascist defund education. Human knowledge is cumulative, it takes time to come up with the wheel from scratch.
Yes, and anti-communists tend to overlook the shitty things Capitalism and the US government do.
The critique cuts both ways. I don’t think either side has much of a solution… But right now - in the west - it’s clear that too much Socialism is not the problem.
The West is Cappoed out right now. Kind of tired of it.
Hey kid, wanna buy us a new Data Center?
No thanks Sir, please leave me alone.
You are conflating not being a tankie with being an anticommunist.
Being a communist shouldn’t stop you from ciritquing your own state. A healthy communist state allows for open critique and discussion of what works and what doesn’t. Otherwise you risk autocracy.
And I would hazard calling China and Russia communist states. Russia doesn’t even call itself communist anymore. And China is a one party autocracy with a free market. They’re only communists in name.
What’s your definition of communist? For me it implies a centrally planned economy to the exclusion of any free market and is definitely at great risk to fall into autocracy. I think that kind of project is doomed from the start, so I wouldn’t call identify myself as a communist.
Those are leninist/Maoist. If we’re being generous we could call them aspirationally communist. But not actually communist.
2 defining criteria for communism is being stateless. Ie not having an governing state elected or otherwise. Definitely not having a large hierarchical unanswerable centralized government. And the other being classlessness. Something that the large central politburos preclude.
The one thing Leninism shares in the most asinine and negative way with communism. In the actual vision of communism, Marx and others theorized that the workers of the factory, etc. Should own the factory. Social ownership. However, Leninism warps and twists it negatively in that the state owns everything, not the workers. They may claim that the workers are the state. But that’s bullshit as can easily be seen by any time they put down a citizen revolt. Roll out the tanks, etc. Like Tiananmen Square.
Bingo. I lost count of how many times I had to explain to a tankie that the PRC isn’t even communist, and then they double down on trying to feed me some bullshit about how the workers supposedly own the state (because the monoparty happens to call itself communist). Like gtfo no the fuck they don’t, that’s communism in name only.
There’s never once in history been a truly communist society, unless you count early Byzantine monasteries, medieval Dithmarschen, or perhaps the ninja communes in Muromachi-era Japan (namely, the Kōka ikki and Iga ikki). Those are literally the closest things to actual communism that have ever existed, at least in recorded history.
I am not sure. I’ve never given it a concrete thought. Communism as a whole is very nebulous. I particularly like the socialist aspects and the welfare for all goals of communism. I like the dream of not having to work to survive.
But I do not like the planned economy aspect of it. I haven’t seen anyone do planned economies well. This includes non communist countries that tried it. There’s something to say about how it is impossible to create a complex web of plans that accurately and adequately account for humanity’s ever-changing needs and wants. But economics is fairly complex and I have little authority over the subject matter to say anything with confidence.
Basically - Freemarket, multi-socialist-only party system, with four strong pillars of democracy acting as checks and balances, with welfare for all.
I don’t identify as a communist in the conventional sense or any other particular label per say. But I do lean left.
I’m not really interested in defining them or getting into that kind of argument here (not being a Communist, I don’t want to defend it).
…but I believe Market Socialism is a thing. Capitalism is (in Marxist doctrine) considered a stage of Communism, and that these discussions often overlook Vietnam…
…Vietnam also has a system of Market Socialism, they’ve just almost resolved homelessness and have no housing crisis because they have a land redistribution system for anyone who wants to go into farming.
… so like, whilst I don’t like Tankies AT ALL (they all demand you read a specific 1000 book list before even having a discussion)… I do think anti-communists are also annoying and often under cooked/biased on historical facts.
To use an analogy being anti-tankie often comes across as basically saying we need to reconsider what the alt-right are saying during the Trump era… And exceedingly often comes down to “a tankie once called me a name I don’t like”.
In short - in comes across as reactionary (rather than thoughtful/legitmate). I don’t like anti-tankies because they’re having a reactionary response rather than just going “those guys are dicks, but I understand within a Capitalist society”
Instead anti-tankies go, “those guys are dicks for calling me that of all people, I’m going to form a club to complain about it… Even though billionaire crony Capitalism is really the problem right now”.
So yeah, I don’t like either of them, but I understand uptight commies better than I do the reaction to them. I can hide and block the commies pretty easily.
I agree.
Always assumed they did what china did. They realized that the tool to stay in power was stability and growth, so they incentivized development on the local and national level for climbing the party ladder and good boy points. But it’s nice to see them actually follow through with the ideals as well.
I understand how that can be tiring. I’ve stopped talking to anyone who purports any fascist or anti-socialist ideals. They will never listen. They are too comfortable with the power they hold to reconsider. On lemmy, I have come across far too many tankies who confuse me to no end. They come off as religious nuts who pretend to like the same ideals I do. They are in my opinion just as worse as the anti-communists.
I don’t want to be associated with them. And I think the political spectrum is far too complicated to neatly divide people into simple categories. But it’s easier to do and who has the time to actually get to know strangers online. So, as a rule, I am against any tankie or fascist.
Weirdly enough my understanding is that Vietnam were more open to Capitalism because Nixon offered them embargo free international trade. I guess both sides were sore from the Vietnam war…
…Vietnam had regional problems, which resulted in Communist Vietnam going to war with Communist Cambodia and putting an end to the Khymer Rogue and the dictatorship of Pol Pot.
Nixon still had bits of a secret sidewar going in Laos, and was looking after his legacy of opening up relations with China… So Vietnam was given more opportunities than most Communist countries are allowed.
…and other communist nations have also been to war with each other… And lots of fascism has been associated with being anti-communist.
So these are some of the topics that as a Westerner I feel liberated by learning about. They’re topics that when I learn about them it exposes limitations on our education systems, and cultural propaganda that’s still ongoing under Capitalism.
We’re taught all communism is the same, that Capitalism could never be fascist, and that profit is the point to life…
I’m tired boss.
That’s why I fucking hate when fascist defund education. Human knowledge is cumulative, it takes time to come up with the wheel from scratch.
It’s alright. Here’s a cute cat.