while there’s very little evidence of a supposed genocide in Xinjiang.
again, nobody is saying china is doing an israel genocide on uyghurs… read the original meme post… it says oppression
while also believing China has a long way to go on LGBTQIA+ rights
why do you believe this? i heard that china is amazing at supporting gay/trans people… anything else you heard is just anti-communist western propaganda… you see how that works?
Right now you’re doing the bit where Zionists say queer people shouldn’t support Palestine because groups like Hamas are anti-LGBTQIA+
no, i’m doing the bit where a bunch of woke white people are strangely acting like china has zero credible criticisms… while also strangely admitting that china has a long way to go on LBGTQIA+ rights
Clearly you can see that my point is that some criticism is real and some is not, right? I’m not “strangely” admitting anything, I’m acknowledging real critique while pointing out that some critique is not genuine. There are people saying China is doing to Xinjiang what Israel is doing to Palestine. They are wrong, of course, but acting like they don’t exist is silly.
Critiquing China based on real issues is good. “Critiquing” China based on exaggerations and atrocity propaganda is bad. LGBTQIA+ rights fall into the former category, the overwhelming majority of allegations surrounding Xinjiang fall into the latter. This is in no way contradictory.
Clearly you can see that my point is that some criticism is real and some is not, right?
no, it’s really not clear what the criteria is for real criticism, vs. not real… seems pretty arbitrary when looking at two very prominent examples of china oppressing cultural/ethic minorities
“Critiquing” China based on exaggerations and atrocity propaganda is bad. LGBTQIA+ rights fall into the former category, the overwhelming majority of allegations surrounding Xinjiang fall into the latter.
i still don’t understand why you think that oppression of LGBT is real, and oppression of uyghurs is exaggeration and propaganda… why is it so OBVIOUS to you that the uyghurs are flourishing, but LGBT people are actually being oppressed?
i KNOW actual uyghur people and i KNOW at least one actual gay person in china… i am chinese and i have family there… i don’t understand how weird internet white knights can wave away the hardships of one group as OBVIOUSLY FAKE (despite likely having never spoken to an actual uyghur person, or even someone from another muslim minority in china), while just arbitrarily believing that china oppresses LGBT people?
by your logic, there are openly gay chinese youtubers who haven’t been executed yet… therefore, there is no oppression and it’s just western propaganda warping your view of china.
the uyghurs i know are not rich people who fled the country and hate china because communism took away their stuff (that would be my taiwanese relatives who DID lose all their bourgeoisie privilege to the communists…) why would they be making shit up about what is happening over there? and why would you be so inclined to dismiss what they have to say just to white knight for china?
Because I don’t trust anecdotes from individuals. I’ve spoken with people that think Trump is a communist. I haven’t spoken to your friends, and I don’t know what specifically it is that you’re arguing, because you’ve been vague. I’ve been clear in stating that China isn’t committing genocide against Uyghurs or trying to push out ethnic minorities, and that’s true, but you’ve been far more vague about what it is that you’re trying to argue.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
Tourists go to Xinjiang all the time. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of course. I don’t know if you’ve been to Urumqi, or Xinjiang in general, but this is another way that we can see what’s actually going on.
The ideas pushed by the west, ie mass sterilization, an erasure of Uyghur culture and language, mass killings of Uyghurs, etc are nearly entirely devoid of evidence.
The west doesn’t care about the Chinese or muslims but we are supposed to believe they care about Chinese muslims. Please let me know how many countries with a minority (Uyghur muslims as the example here) population have their languages on their currency and actively promotes their culture significantly (like drawing in tourism), skyrocketing of HDI and then gets accused of whatever you are doing here.
The thing with the neither Washington nor Beijing schtick is that it is tantamount support of western atrocity propaganda; you want to believe Western lies as you have already decided on a hierarchy of human beings and denigrate those who stand against Western imperialism. If you know you have been lied to about every Western Designated Enemy since WWII but choose to believe current ones then you ain’t brainwashed, just bigoted.
You do realize that you can check the sources compiled by Qiao Collective, right? I also referenced the UN and PRC. The travel influencer bit was an addendum, not the core focus
again, nobody is saying china is doing an israel genocide on uyghurs… read the original meme post… it says oppression
why do you believe this? i heard that china is amazing at supporting gay/trans people… anything else you heard is just anti-communist western propaganda… you see how that works?
Clearly you can see that my point is that some criticism is real and some is not, right? I’m not “strangely” admitting anything, I’m acknowledging real critique while pointing out that some critique is not genuine. There are people saying China is doing to Xinjiang what Israel is doing to Palestine. They are wrong, of course, but acting like they don’t exist is silly.
Critiquing China based on real issues is good. “Critiquing” China based on exaggerations and atrocity propaganda is bad. LGBTQIA+ rights fall into the former category, the overwhelming majority of allegations surrounding Xinjiang fall into the latter. This is in no way contradictory.
no, it’s really not clear what the criteria is for real criticism, vs. not real… seems pretty arbitrary when looking at two very prominent examples of china oppressing cultural/ethic minorities
i still don’t understand why you think that oppression of LGBT is real, and oppression of uyghurs is exaggeration and propaganda… why is it so OBVIOUS to you that the uyghurs are flourishing, but LGBT people are actually being oppressed?
i KNOW actual uyghur people and i KNOW at least one actual gay person in china… i am chinese and i have family there… i don’t understand how weird internet white knights can wave away the hardships of one group as OBVIOUSLY FAKE (despite likely having never spoken to an actual uyghur person, or even someone from another muslim minority in china), while just arbitrarily believing that china oppresses LGBT people?
by your logic, there are openly gay chinese youtubers who haven’t been executed yet… therefore, there is no oppression and it’s just western propaganda warping your view of china.
the uyghurs i know are not rich people who fled the country and hate china because communism took away their stuff (that would be my taiwanese relatives who DID lose all their bourgeoisie privilege to the communists…) why would they be making shit up about what is happening over there? and why would you be so inclined to dismiss what they have to say just to white knight for china?
Because I don’t trust anecdotes from individuals. I’ve spoken with people that think Trump is a communist. I haven’t spoken to your friends, and I don’t know what specifically it is that you’re arguing, because you’ve been vague. I’ve been clear in stating that China isn’t committing genocide against Uyghurs or trying to push out ethnic minorities, and that’s true, but you’ve been far more vague about what it is that you’re trying to argue.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
I also recommend reading the UN report and China’s response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.
Tourists go to Xinjiang all the time. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of course. I don’t know if you’ve been to Urumqi, or Xinjiang in general, but this is another way that we can see what’s actually going on.
The ideas pushed by the west, ie mass sterilization, an erasure of Uyghur culture and language, mass killings of Uyghurs, etc are nearly entirely devoid of evidence.
[proceeds to trust some random patreon website and some youtube travel influencers…]
anyway. it was a fun afternoon of earning capitalist value tokens while pretending to add value at work… thanks all for the discussion
The west doesn’t care about the Chinese or muslims but we are supposed to believe they care about Chinese muslims. Please let me know how many countries with a minority (Uyghur muslims as the example here) population have their languages on their currency and actively promotes their culture significantly (like drawing in tourism), skyrocketing of HDI and then gets accused of whatever you are doing here.
The thing with the neither Washington nor Beijing schtick is that it is tantamount support of western atrocity propaganda; you want to believe Western lies as you have already decided on a hierarchy of human beings and denigrate those who stand against Western imperialism. If you know you have been lied to about every Western Designated Enemy since WWII but choose to believe current ones then you ain’t brainwashed, just bigoted.
You do realize that you can check the sources compiled by Qiao Collective, right? I also referenced the UN and PRC. The travel influencer bit was an addendum, not the core focus