First of all, I would firmly disagree with calling genuine ML(M)s “red fascists”, which is historically disingenuous and, in the present, dangerously inaccurate, especially regarding today’s global political climate.
I believe the rules of c/leftymemes are already expansive to prevent irrational idolization/glorification (i.e. exaggerating positive aspects or denying mistakes to the point of lying). However, stating historical fact, or using historical figures to subvert expectations, does not violate that.
Genuinely socialist memes of all stripes (!) have a place there as long as they adhere to the rules, which most do IMO. I admit that moderation could be more proactive and rules better enforced, but we don’t get don’t get a lot of reports either and currently the largest problem IMHO is the lib infestation in the comments…
When the proposed “solution” of the ML(M) would be to place me in a fascist regime with a red coat of paint and oppress me (if not outright murder me in the name of the revolution), I will fucking call them red fash.
or using historical figures to subvert expectations,
There’s a fine line between subverting expectations and glorifying authoritarian leaders, and the new crop of posts are hell bent on crossing over it just enough to not get caught.
When the proposed “solution” of the ML(M) would be to place me in a fascist regime with a red coat of paint and oppress me (if not outright murder me in the name of the revolution)
Just an FYI that this is a massive “[citation needed]” moment, literally no-one advocates for anything like that or even just reimplementing past socialist experiments (which happened under wildly different material conditions), 1:1 today. I believe you are building strawmen…
There’s a fine line between subverting expectations and glorifying authoritarian leaders, and the new crop of posts are hell bent on crossing over it just enough to not get caught.
Just showing them as characters in a meme != glorification IMHO (which is what has been happening in the posts that are still up, as far as I can tell).
Just an FYI that this is a massive “[citation needed]” moment, literally no-one advocates for anything like tha
How can you say that with a straight face, when there’s a whole-ass instance glorifying North Korea?
Not to mention that nobody outright says that they’re going to be oppressive. Lenin sounded great in 2017 1917 when he was writing effectively anarchist praxis. We just know that the creation of a new state is going to inevitably end up oppressing and killing those who oppose creating a state.
Apologies for the wording, I meant that in the “genuine ML(M)” context
Edit:
whole-ass instance glorifying North Korea
Also I don’t believe that to be unnuanced uncritical support that wants to blindly copy everything about it either, but largely geopolitical and critical support
No? I’m writing from an anti-revisionist, revolutionary Marxist position.
Please also take this into account:
[…] I don’t believe that to be unnuanced uncritical support that wants to blindly copy everything about it either, but largely geopolitical and critical support
Cowbee is out there saying that China is their ideal model of communism, so I’m not going to be surprised if there’s MLs who fucking love NK as it is right now. But I’m not going to delve into Lemmygrad to prove a point.
No? I’m writing from an anti-revisionist, revolutionary Marxist position.
Unfortunately every Marxist position thinks they’re the one true “anti-revisionist, revolutionary”
Cowbee is out there saying that China is their ideal model of communism
I tend to disagree with some of his takes, but in this instance you are being disingenuous. He does advocate for it, but not blindly and not uncritically, and mostly to highlight it’s advantages over western models as support for a form “actually existing socialism” (which I disagree with). This for is not “their ideal model of communism”, far from it actually, they are just trying to be pragmatic about it as a form of “temporary retreat”.
Unfortunately every Marxist position thinks they’re the one true “anti-revisionist, revolutionary”
Yeah… I’m not gonna respond to that, trying to keep a good faith convo… But you seem to be more interested in slander…
I haven’t said the PRC is “my ideal.” I don’t think it’s my place to discuss whether or not x or y socialist project is “ideal,” especially when all of them have flaws. What I defend is the socialist project itself, and recognize its capacity to continue improving and providing for the working classes.
If you’re going to use me as an example, please don’t misrepresent my positions.
When the proposed “solution” of the ML(M) would be to place me in a fascist regime with a red coat of paint and oppress me (if not outright murder me in the name of the revolution), I will fucking call them red fash.
Just feel that this needs addressing:
Socialism and communism aren’t fascism. Fascism is inherently a violent protection of the bourgeoisie, not a collectivized system of production and distribution.
There are no real examples of communists issuing blanket “kill all the anarchists for thought crimes!” orders. Fighting has existed, sure, but never a one-sided affair.
Essentially, this isn’t a “solution” posited by anybody.
No, the “evil commies” don’t want to oppress you. We disagree on how society should be organized, but that doesn’t make communists anywhere close to fascists. Where anarchists seek communalized and decentralized production and distribution, communists seek collectivized production and distribution, and both of these are entirely different from fascism and the system of private ownership that oppresses us today.
First of all, I would firmly disagree with calling genuine ML(M)s “red fascists”, which is historically disingenuous and, in the present, dangerously inaccurate, especially regarding today’s global political climate.
I believe the rules of c/leftymemes are already expansive to prevent irrational idolization/glorification (i.e. exaggerating positive aspects or denying mistakes to the point of lying). However, stating historical fact, or using historical figures to subvert expectations, does not violate that.
Genuinely socialist memes of all stripes (!) have a place there as long as they adhere to the rules, which most do IMO. I admit that moderation could be more proactive and rules better enforced, but we don’t get don’t get a lot of reports either and currently the largest problem IMHO is the lib infestation in the comments…
When the proposed “solution” of the ML(M) would be to place me in a fascist regime with a red coat of paint and oppress me (if not outright murder me in the name of the revolution), I will fucking call them red fash.
There’s a fine line between subverting expectations and glorifying authoritarian leaders, and the new crop of posts are hell bent on crossing over it just enough to not get caught.
Just an FYI that this is a massive “[citation needed]” moment, literally no-one advocates for anything like that or even just reimplementing past socialist experiments (which happened under wildly different material conditions), 1:1 today. I believe you are building strawmen…
Just showing them as characters in a meme != glorification IMHO (which is what has been happening in the posts that are still up, as far as I can tell).
How can you say that with a straight face, when there’s a whole-ass instance glorifying North Korea?
Not to mention that nobody outright says that they’re going to be oppressive. Lenin sounded great in
20171917 when he was writing effectively anarchist praxis. We just know that the creation of a new state is going to inevitably end up oppressing and killing those who oppose creating a state.Apologies for the wording, I meant that in the “genuine ML(M)” context
Edit:
Also I don’t believe that to be unnuanced uncritical support that wants to blindly copy everything about it either, but largely geopolitical and critical support
Isn’t that a No True Scotsman?
No? I’m writing from an anti-revisionist, revolutionary Marxist position.
Please also take this into account:
Cowbee is out there saying that China is their ideal model of communism, so I’m not going to be surprised if there’s MLs who fucking love NK as it is right now. But I’m not going to delve into Lemmygrad to prove a point.
Unfortunately every Marxist position thinks they’re the one true “anti-revisionist, revolutionary”
I tend to disagree with some of his takes, but in this instance you are being disingenuous. He does advocate for it, but not blindly and not uncritically, and mostly to highlight it’s advantages over western models as support for a form “actually existing socialism” (which I disagree with). This for is not “their ideal model of communism”, far from it actually, they are just trying to be pragmatic about it as a form of “temporary retreat”.
Yeah… I’m not gonna respond to that, trying to keep a good faith convo… But you seem to be more interested in slander…
I haven’t said the PRC is “my ideal.” I don’t think it’s my place to discuss whether or not x or y socialist project is “ideal,” especially when all of them have flaws. What I defend is the socialist project itself, and recognize its capacity to continue improving and providing for the working classes.
If you’re going to use me as an example, please don’t misrepresent my positions.
Wrong timeline champ. He’s still dead in this one 😜
That’s what they want you to think!
Dogbert. Your most active user who got instance banned. They do that all the time and you gas them up.
Just feel that this needs addressing:
Socialism and communism aren’t fascism. Fascism is inherently a violent protection of the bourgeoisie, not a collectivized system of production and distribution.
There are no real examples of communists issuing blanket “kill all the anarchists for thought crimes!” orders. Fighting has existed, sure, but never a one-sided affair.
Essentially, this isn’t a “solution” posited by anybody.
No, the “evil commies” don’t want to oppress you. We disagree on how society should be organized, but that doesn’t make communists anywhere close to fascists. Where anarchists seek communalized and decentralized production and distribution, communists seek collectivized production and distribution, and both of these are entirely different from fascism and the system of private ownership that oppresses us today.
My god you’re annoying.
Nope 👍