We are discussing so-called “Communists” on this platform. You and I both know this place is crawling with history denialists (particularly the events of June 1989). Any “ideology” that is more concerned about preserving the image of the state over accepting responsibility is not an ideology worth my or anybody else’s time. It’s insulting and little and pathetic.
I’m interested in the merits of communism, but all this platform does is re-hash the same state approved talking points over and over. It’s tiring and isn’t winning anybody with an ounce of morality over.
I don’t agree with the idea that “this place is crawling with history denialists.” What it is “crawling” with are people that combat the westernized, atrocity propaganda version of June 4th, 1989, instead contextualizing it with what’s actually confirmed. For example, western myth-making talks about tanks running over everyone on the square, resulting in 10,000 killed, but what actually happened is that dispersal of the square was peaceful, but on the way to the square hundreds of rioters and PLA members died in fighting around Beijing. This isn’t “denialism,” but instead deflecting western atrocity propaganda.
We do accept responsibility, and aren’t interested in lying, but when we know that the character of events is quantitatively and qualitatively different from the version western anti-communists beat us over the head with, we are forced to confront them honestly. What’s insulting and little and pathetic isn’t the communists combatting misinformation, but the anti-communists less interested in truth and more interested in wielding whatever convenient narrative they can like a club.
One thing that’s important is that when we talk about communism, honestly judging its merits and flaws, people come to communism. I made an intro ML reading list, as an example, that others seem to like. Also, around the world, communist orgs are growing in membership.
The point of this all is that you’ve done no real effort to explain how we falsify history, you’ve vaguely asserted it while belittling our efforts. Your citation is that “you and I know this,” which isn’t a source, nor is it accurate, yet you’re using this narrative like a club to try to shut me down, regardless of the truth of the matter. It’s thought-terminating.
You and I both know I will be banned if I posted (the freely available) photos. It’s easy to claim something never happened when you own and control the platform.
You’re being intentionally disingenuous and you know it.
Photos are freely available, yes, and they back up what I claimed, not what you’re vaguely hinting at. Westerners have used them to try to twist the narrative, distorting the context of the photos to concoct atrocity propaganda.
It’s easy to claim something vague happened, but not provide any evidence, and complain about misinformation being removed as a way to claim truth is removed. If you don’t do any legwork to prove that, though, your argument is utterly unconvincing.
Essentially, you want to uphold your own view, without proving any of it and without daring to look at counter-evidence. I recommend reading Qiao Collective’s Tian’anmen Protests Reading List for a good place to start.
Can you explain what exactly it is that I’m denying, with evidence? You’re proving me correct here, you’re denying history and using wetern atrocity propaganda as a club against anyone that wants to improve the world we live in.
Hundreds of people did die, yes, not 10,000 people and not on the square. This platform prohibits posting the western atrocity propaganda version of historical mythmaking, not discussion of the June 4th protests and riots, nor the fact that the PLA did kill hundreds of rioters. By remaining vague and unserious about your claims, you’re painting a picture of us as claiming nobody died at all on June 4th, there were no tanks, nothing happened, etc, but that’s not the case at all, and this vague posturing on your part is contributing to that misinformation about us and our stances.
painting a picture of us as claiming nobody died at all on June 4th
People are actually constantly claiming this on this platform. You’re again being disingenuous by claiming otherwise or have your eyes closed.
The whole “tank man wasn’t murdered” talking point is a pathetic attempt to deny the entire incident by re-focusing the incident on tank man and completely ignoring the events which lead up to it.
You’re entirely wrong. People say that nobody died in Tian’anmen Square, which is true, even the ever-biased Wikipedia agrees that dispersal of the square was peaceful. You’re reading people denying the western myth of tanks running over 10,000 people on the square itself as denying any killings by the PLA on June 4th,1989. Post evidence of the claims you believe exist, or stop with your historical denialism.
The whole “tank man wasn’t murdered” thing is a pathetic attempt to deny the entire incident by re-focusing the incident on tank man and completely ignoring the events which lead up to it.
No, it’s to point out how the west teaches a mythologized version of events by focusing on one of its most iconic moments, and showing that it doesn’t at all align with the western version of events. If anything, communists are the ones that actually know what the protests were about in the month leading up to it in April and May, CIA involvement with the student leaders through Operation Yellowbird, and so forth, because whenever we claim to support the PRC anti-communists inevitably wield the mythologized version of events like a club against us, which we have to dispel over and over again.
Can you explain? What do you mean by this vague statement?
We are discussing so-called “Communists” on this platform. You and I both know this place is crawling with history denialists (particularly the events of June 1989). Any “ideology” that is more concerned about preserving the image of the state over accepting responsibility is not an ideology worth my or anybody else’s time. It’s insulting and little and pathetic.
I’m interested in the merits of communism, but all this platform does is re-hash the same state approved talking points over and over. It’s tiring and isn’t winning anybody with an ounce of morality over.
I don’t agree with the idea that “this place is crawling with history denialists.” What it is “crawling” with are people that combat the westernized, atrocity propaganda version of June 4th, 1989, instead contextualizing it with what’s actually confirmed. For example, western myth-making talks about tanks running over everyone on the square, resulting in 10,000 killed, but what actually happened is that dispersal of the square was peaceful, but on the way to the square hundreds of rioters and PLA members died in fighting around Beijing. This isn’t “denialism,” but instead deflecting western atrocity propaganda.
We do accept responsibility, and aren’t interested in lying, but when we know that the character of events is quantitatively and qualitatively different from the version western anti-communists beat us over the head with, we are forced to confront them honestly. What’s insulting and little and pathetic isn’t the communists combatting misinformation, but the anti-communists less interested in truth and more interested in wielding whatever convenient narrative they can like a club.
One thing that’s important is that when we talk about communism, honestly judging its merits and flaws, people come to communism. I made an intro ML reading list, as an example, that others seem to like. Also, around the world, communist orgs are growing in membership.
The point of this all is that you’ve done no real effort to explain how we falsify history, you’ve vaguely asserted it while belittling our efforts. Your citation is that “you and I know this,” which isn’t a source, nor is it accurate, yet you’re using this narrative like a club to try to shut me down, regardless of the truth of the matter. It’s thought-terminating.
You and I both know I will be banned if I posted (the freely available) photos. It’s easy to claim something never happened when you own and control the platform.
You’re being intentionally disingenuous and you know it.
Photos are freely available, yes, and they back up what I claimed, not what you’re vaguely hinting at. Westerners have used them to try to twist the narrative, distorting the context of the photos to concoct atrocity propaganda.
It’s easy to claim something vague happened, but not provide any evidence, and complain about misinformation being removed as a way to claim truth is removed. If you don’t do any legwork to prove that, though, your argument is utterly unconvincing.
Essentially, you want to uphold your own view, without proving any of it and without daring to look at counter-evidence. I recommend reading Qiao Collective’s Tian’anmen Protests Reading List for a good place to start.
Pictures of the dead do not back up what you claim.
They do, actually. I’ve seen them, pretty much every communist that’s had to research June 4th, 1989 has had to.
In other words, you have nothing, but you’re too stubborn and arrogant to admit it
See the above comment for more detail
Can you explain what exactly it is that I’m denying, with evidence? You’re proving me correct here, you’re denying history and using wetern atrocity propaganda as a club against anyone that wants to improve the world we live in.
Like I said. This platform prohibits posting anything other than the official stance of denialism.
There are plenty of photos of the dead scattered around bloodied and mutilated.
You expect me to ignore that and pretend it didn’t happen?
Hundreds of people did die, yes, not 10,000 people and not on the square. This platform prohibits posting the western atrocity propaganda version of historical mythmaking, not discussion of the June 4th protests and riots, nor the fact that the PLA did kill hundreds of rioters. By remaining vague and unserious about your claims, you’re painting a picture of us as claiming nobody died at all on June 4th, there were no tanks, nothing happened, etc, but that’s not the case at all, and this vague posturing on your part is contributing to that misinformation about us and our stances.
Also what you believe occurred that month doesn’t change the state’s official stance on the subject.
What do you think the state’s official stance on the subject is?
People are actually constantly claiming this on this platform. You’re again being disingenuous by claiming otherwise or have your eyes closed.
The whole “tank man wasn’t murdered” talking point is a pathetic attempt to deny the entire incident by re-focusing the incident on tank man and completely ignoring the events which lead up to it.
And now you’ve been reduced to the point of lying through your teeth
You’re entirely wrong. People say that nobody died in Tian’anmen Square, which is true, even the ever-biased Wikipedia agrees that dispersal of the square was peaceful. You’re reading people denying the western myth of tanks running over 10,000 people on the square itself as denying any killings by the PLA on June 4th,1989. Post evidence of the claims you believe exist, or stop with your historical denialism.
No, it’s to point out how the west teaches a mythologized version of events by focusing on one of its most iconic moments, and showing that it doesn’t at all align with the western version of events. If anything, communists are the ones that actually know what the protests were about in the month leading up to it in April and May, CIA involvement with the student leaders through Operation Yellowbird, and so forth, because whenever we claim to support the PRC anti-communists inevitably wield the mythologized version of events like a club against us, which we have to dispel over and over again.
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Removed by mod