When I left, I went to Canada. Then the UK - which was in Europe back then. Then I lived in a bunch of countries in Europe. Then Australia. Then back to Europe. That’s where I am now.
It was easy for me: I had dual citizenship. I simply renounced the wrong one - which cost me a pretty penny: it’s a real racket run by the US, this. But it paid for itself many times over in that I never had to pay US taxes for income I generated outside the US, which is also another US racket.
But it paid for itself many times over in that I never had to pay US taxes for income I generated outside the US
Did it really? I was under the impression that foreign taxes paid reduced US taxes owed, so (unless you were in some low-tax country, which doesn’t seem likely given that you’re talking about countries with better government services than the US) wouldn’t your US taxes have been minimal, if not zero? I also understand that filing each year to claim that exemption could be a hassle, but it doesn’t seem like enough of one to be worth the “racket” of renunciation over.
I’m open to the idea that renunciation could be better than maintaining dual citizenship, but you haven’t convinced me yet. What other pros/cons are there?
Renounciation costs (or at least used to cost) a few thousand dollars. That’s money you quickly recoup by not paying any US taxes.
Besides, I don’t see why I should pay Uncle Sam anything of what I earn abroard, living abroad and working in a foreign company, not using any American services or infrastructure. The only rational Uncle Sam has to offer for extracting taxes from US citizens residing abroad is essentially “Pay up or else…” That’s a racket, pure and simple: even if it wasn’t financially sound, I don’t pay racketeers.
What other pros/cons are there?
Not being an American is a big pro. Your conscience is less dirty.
And as of Apr 14, 2025, the safety of not living in a dictatorship where the rule of law doesn’t apply anymore is also a big plus.
And while not directly linked to citizenship proper, living abroad offers many advantages: working healthcare, a decent education for your children, publc services that work… Yes, you pay a lot of taxes in Europe, but you know what you get out of it. The quality of life in Europe is much higher than in the US. And - I know it sounds weird but it’s true - you don’t need the constant background paranoia you need to live in the US. You don’t realize the paranoia is there until you leave and then it lifts from you. It’s a real thing.
But of course you can experience all that while still being an American. Not being American is mostly a matter of refusing to be associated with - and finance - an amoral society.
That’s money you quickly recoup by not paying any US taxes.
You’ve said that twice now. I was under the impression that if your US tax liability is $X but you already paid >$X in foreign taxes, you file a form saying so and your US tax liability drops to $0. Is my understanding incorrect?
And as of Apr 14, 2025, the safety of not living in a dictatorship where the rule of law doesn’t apply anymore is also a big plus.
That’s an excellent argument for not living within US jurisdiction, but how is it an argument for not keeping US citizenship as an ex-pat? Are first-world countries like the ones you mentioned likely to force you to return to US jurisdiction even with you being a citizen of the other country?
[Listing of various qualitative benefits, concluding with…] Not being American is mostly a matter of refusing to be associated with - and finance - an amoral society.
No argument from me on any of that! (In particular, as a Not Just Bikes fan, I’m well aware and extremely envious of superior European quality of life.)
Are there any other concrete reasons why having secondary US citizenship would be a liability, though? For example, does it cause problems crossing borders even if you’re traveling on the other country’s passport, or some other practical issue like that? Or maybe I vaguely remember reading something once about it being problematic to open foreign bank accounts as a US citizen…? Those are the kinds of things I’m hoping you could expand upon.
You’ve said that twice now. I was under the impression that if your US tax liability is $X but you already paid >$X in foreign taxes, you file a form saying so and your US tax liability drops to $0. Is my understanding incorrect?
That may be the case today. But when I left a quarter century ago, it wasn’t like that. I don’t remember the specifics, but I would have ended up paying some thousands of dollars every year.
That’s an excellent argument for not living within US jurisdiction, but how is it an argument for not keeping US citizenship as an ex-pat?
A country that’s gone rogue can’t strongarm another to deport their enemy citizens living there back home if they’re not citizens no more.
I fully expect the Trump regime - or whichever new Trumpesque dictator replaces the orange buffoon when he kicks the bucket - to come after expats it deems treacherous or enemies of the state or something. I’d rather the US can’t legally demand my repatriation.
The fewer ties you have to the US, the better. It was true before, and it’s especially true now.
The other reason is, a lot of foreigners - like, a LOT - don’t particularly like Americans, even the friendliest ones. It’s easier not to be an American than having to prove you’re one of the nice ones all the time.
problematic to open foreign bank accounts as a US citizen…?
I never had any problem. But remember, it was a long time ago. Things were still pretty chill in the early 2000’s. You could literally walk into a bank and open an account in 10 minutes with any ID that looked legit 🙂 There was no KYC or anything like that, and banks mostly cared about whether you had money to deposit. I mean not quite 80’s like, but nothing like the stringent dystopia of today.
Also, I had citizenship from a EU country, so that helped.
Yeah - I recently looked into citizenship renouncement, and the hooks that are in place that I had NO IDEA existed are frankly absurd. But congrats on getting through it!!
If you don’t have dual citizenship like I had, your best bet is to move somewhere you like, stay there for a while as a resident, then apply for citizenship there. Then depending on your destination country, that either makes you dual-citizen and you have to renounced your US citizenship explicitely, or you have dual-citizenship for that country but not for the US or vice-versa, or your US citizenship instantly becomes invalid. In all cases, if you want to stop being American, Uncle Sam will make you cough up a bunch of money. Because the US is a country of racketeers.
You absolutely CAN be stateless, and one of the primary drivers is being a refugee, amongst other things. But point taken regarding a unitedstatesian becoming stateless - it’s unlikely to have unfolded that way in this case.
Where did you go?
When I left, I went to Canada. Then the UK - which was in Europe back then. Then I lived in a bunch of countries in Europe. Then Australia. Then back to Europe. That’s where I am now.
Were you able to get citizenship somewhere, or just permanent residency? I admit idk exactly how that works in terms of citizenship renouncement
It was easy for me: I had dual citizenship. I simply renounced the wrong one - which cost me a pretty penny: it’s a real racket run by the US, this. But it paid for itself many times over in that I never had to pay US taxes for income I generated outside the US, which is also another US racket.
Did it really? I was under the impression that foreign taxes paid reduced US taxes owed, so (unless you were in some low-tax country, which doesn’t seem likely given that you’re talking about countries with better government services than the US) wouldn’t your US taxes have been minimal, if not zero? I also understand that filing each year to claim that exemption could be a hassle, but it doesn’t seem like enough of one to be worth the “racket” of renunciation over.
I’m open to the idea that renunciation could be better than maintaining dual citizenship, but you haven’t convinced me yet. What other pros/cons are there?
Renounciation costs (or at least used to cost) a few thousand dollars. That’s money you quickly recoup by not paying any US taxes.
Besides, I don’t see why I should pay Uncle Sam anything of what I earn abroard, living abroad and working in a foreign company, not using any American services or infrastructure. The only rational Uncle Sam has to offer for extracting taxes from US citizens residing abroad is essentially “Pay up or else…” That’s a racket, pure and simple: even if it wasn’t financially sound, I don’t pay racketeers.
Not being an American is a big pro. Your conscience is less dirty.
And as of Apr 14, 2025, the safety of not living in a dictatorship where the rule of law doesn’t apply anymore is also a big plus.
And while not directly linked to citizenship proper, living abroad offers many advantages: working healthcare, a decent education for your children, publc services that work… Yes, you pay a lot of taxes in Europe, but you know what you get out of it. The quality of life in Europe is much higher than in the US. And - I know it sounds weird but it’s true - you don’t need the constant background paranoia you need to live in the US. You don’t realize the paranoia is there until you leave and then it lifts from you. It’s a real thing.
But of course you can experience all that while still being an American. Not being American is mostly a matter of refusing to be associated with - and finance - an amoral society.
they need to fund thier overbloated defense budget somehow, at the expense every other social program.
Its not just a fixed fee. There’s also a percent of your whole net worth that you have to pay.
You’ve said that twice now. I was under the impression that if your US tax liability is $X but you already paid >$X in foreign taxes, you file a form saying so and your US tax liability drops to $0. Is my understanding incorrect?
That’s an excellent argument for not living within US jurisdiction, but how is it an argument for not keeping US citizenship as an ex-pat? Are first-world countries like the ones you mentioned likely to force you to return to US jurisdiction even with you being a citizen of the other country?
No argument from me on any of that! (In particular, as a Not Just Bikes fan, I’m well aware and extremely envious of superior European quality of life.)
Are there any other concrete reasons why having secondary US citizenship would be a liability, though? For example, does it cause problems crossing borders even if you’re traveling on the other country’s passport, or some other practical issue like that? Or maybe I vaguely remember reading something once about it being problematic to open foreign bank accounts as a US citizen…? Those are the kinds of things I’m hoping you could expand upon.
The US doesn’t give a shit how much you pay in foreign taxes. Its irrelevant to the IRS.
The foreign income tax exemption varies based on marital status, but generally you dont pay US taxes if you earned less than $100,000 per year.
Except for capital gains. There’s no foreign income exemption for that.
That may be the case today. But when I left a quarter century ago, it wasn’t like that. I don’t remember the specifics, but I would have ended up paying some thousands of dollars every year.
A country that’s gone rogue can’t strongarm another to deport their enemy citizens living there back home if they’re not citizens no more.
I fully expect the Trump regime - or whichever new Trumpesque dictator replaces the orange buffoon when he kicks the bucket - to come after expats it deems treacherous or enemies of the state or something. I’d rather the US can’t legally demand my repatriation.
The fewer ties you have to the US, the better. It was true before, and it’s especially true now.
The other reason is, a lot of foreigners - like, a LOT - don’t particularly like Americans, even the friendliest ones. It’s easier not to be an American than having to prove you’re one of the nice ones all the time.
I never had any problem. But remember, it was a long time ago. Things were still pretty chill in the early 2000’s. You could literally walk into a bank and open an account in 10 minutes with any ID that looked legit 🙂 There was no KYC or anything like that, and banks mostly cared about whether you had money to deposit. I mean not quite 80’s like, but nothing like the stringent dystopia of today.
Also, I had citizenship from a EU country, so that helped.
It was like that a quarter century ago.
Yeah - I recently looked into citizenship renouncement, and the hooks that are in place that I had NO IDEA existed are frankly absurd. But congrats on getting through it!!
You can’t really be stateless so I presume they had or got some other citizenship first.
You can but your life becomes one giant hell.
If you don’t have dual citizenship like I had, your best bet is to move somewhere you like, stay there for a while as a resident, then apply for citizenship there. Then depending on your destination country, that either makes you dual-citizen and you have to renounced your US citizenship explicitely, or you have dual-citizenship for that country but not for the US or vice-versa, or your US citizenship instantly becomes invalid. In all cases, if you want to stop being American, Uncle Sam will make you cough up a bunch of money. Because the US is a country of racketeers.
You absolutely CAN be stateless, and one of the primary drivers is being a refugee, amongst other things. But point taken regarding a unitedstatesian becoming stateless - it’s unlikely to have unfolded that way in this case.
Let me rephrase. It’s not advisable to be stateless when you’re trying to emigrate voluntarily.
Out for a pack of cigarettes