I absolutely care about historical accuracy! That’s why that show depicting Rome in all white is so fucking dumb. It was a Mediterranean Empire, for fuck’s sake! It had people from all around the Mediterranean, even in the upper echelons. For instance, there were emperors from the Balkan and modern central Turkey.
But anyway, what matters more to me than the ethnicity or appearance of the characters is the faithful representation of social and political structures or technological restrictions. Race can play a part in this, but it’s hardly the only part and rarely the most important. Wealth, while often correlated with race, is generally the more significant factor.
For example: Arrows piercing plate like so much paper understates the power advantage between those who could afford proper protection and those who had to make do with textile armor. I don’t care if the guy inside that cuirass is white, black, green with purple dots or actually not a guy: an arrow slowed by friction hitting a sloped steel sheet at an angle is gonna slide off. I’d rather see an Asian female knight stride into battle with confidence and terrify lightly armoured peasants than have a male knight shot through the chestplate.
Maximinus Thrax was named after his origin in Thracia, which would have included the European part of modern-day Turkey along with parts of Bulgaria and Eastern Greece. There were other Thraco-Roman emperors as well, I just picked one arbitrarily. My main point was “not white”.
Man you’re not going to believe when I tell you the meaning of the word Caucasian.
Go right ahead! I’m interested in the point you’re looking to make. And if your point is also “not white”, be sure to also address it to all the people whose Italy is filled with Brits that make milk look tan.
My point is that, if you’re trying to say that someone from the Balkans is not white you’re just wrong
They’re not British-white is my point, but I probably should have said so explicitly. I assumed that a reader would be familiar with the phenomenon of shows about Rome being cast predominantly British, but in hindsight, that’s a bold assumption to make.
Balkan is a region from the Caucasus
Wat
I mean, they’re both bordering the Black Sea, if that’s what you mean, but the Balkan is on the west side while the Caucasus is on the east. Unless you’re working off some other definition I don’t know of?
so they are more Caucasian than any of the white/Caucasian from the USA today.
So today’s US and UK actors not the same “white” as the Caucasians in antiquity? Even if we extended that to the Balkans, that just underlines my point. I’m not looking to argue about specific terms for specific ethnic backgrounds here.
I’m talking about the fact that, by and large, historical Romans don’t actually fit the way TV shows the last few decades tended to portray them. I picked two decidedly non-“modern British white” emperors as examples of prominent non-mBw Romans.
If you want more examples, Septimus Severus was of Punic (originally Phoenician / Semitic people who settled in northern Africa) descent, born in modern-day Libya, which I’m fairly confident we all agree is not Caucasian, nor white, and most certainly not mBw. He is visible in this family portrait (although one of his sons was condemned by the other, which is probably why that face has been erased):
Does that look white to you, by whatever definition you would like to apply?
English --> Caucasian
Balkan – > not Caucasian, not close enough.
And that’s not a joke.
I just consider very funny that the people from the region that gives name to the Caucasian “race” are not considered white enough to be considered Caucasian.
BTW this is a just a problem in the USA. The only time in my life a had to catalogue myself in a race tag was when I traveled to the USA. And it’s very stupid because I’m Spanish but I couldn’t tag myself as latin, they say I must use Caucasian.
Like I said, this is a thing only in the USA. Nobody cares about the “races” they invented.
I’m not from the US, maybe that’s why I don’t deal much with the names people give to “races”. The only case particularly relevant to me is that of a certain megalomaniac getting people riled up about the “Aryan” race which I’m sure we both agree was also quite nonsensical.
English --> Caucasian Balkan – > not Caucasian, not close enough.
I mean, if we’re going by geography, Balkan would be closer to the Caucasus than either of them to England. I couldn’t tell you how any given ethnic people moved, spread and intermingled over the centuries, but as you say, it’s not really relevant outside the US.
I just consider very funny that the people from the region that gives name to the Caucasian “race” are not considered white enough to be considered Caucasian.
That’s partially why I avoid the use of that term. The rest of it is that it just isn’t a useful term since it…
And it’s very stupid because I’m Spanish but I couldn’t tag myself as latin, they say I must use Caucasian.
…is so broadly used that it no longer refers to any distinct ethnic, geographic or cultural group. It’s just a shorthand for the stereotypes and biases people attach to it.
Of course, the whole point of sorting people into races is racism, but we knew that already.
Granted, I was being imprecise, but my point was that many UK and US shows and movies scarcely cast actors from the Mediterranean or the various other former Roman provinces that would also have wealthy elites who would have to be involved in public matters as any other Roman citizen was expected to. Because that’s what most influences whether you’ll make it high in the Cursus Honorum: having the money to make friends.
Instead, they primarily cast “makes milk look tan” Brits, particularly for their elites. When the Senate of a Mediterranean Empire looks like they only ever hold public speeches or leave the house for any other social function when it’s overcast, that does irritate me.
I absolutely care about historical accuracy! That’s why that show depicting Rome in all white is so fucking dumb. It was a Mediterranean Empire, for fuck’s sake! It had people from all around the Mediterranean, even in the upper echelons. For instance, there were emperors from the Balkan and modern central Turkey.
But anyway, what matters more to me than the ethnicity or appearance of the characters is the faithful representation of social and political structures or technological restrictions. Race can play a part in this, but it’s hardly the only part and rarely the most important. Wealth, while often correlated with race, is generally the more significant factor.
For example: Arrows piercing plate like so much paper understates the power advantage between those who could afford proper protection and those who had to make do with textile armor. I don’t care if the guy inside that cuirass is white, black, green with purple dots or actually not a guy: an arrow slowed by friction hitting a sloped steel sheet at an angle is gonna slide off. I’d rather see an Asian female knight stride into battle with confidence and terrify lightly armoured peasants than have a male knight shot through the chestplate.
Ofc, they’re all white. Have you seen their marble busts? They’d choose black marble if they were black
Beat me to it.
From the Balkan? Really? Man you’re not going to believe when I tell you the meaning of the word Caucasian.
Maximinus Thrax was named after his origin in Thracia, which would have included the European part of modern-day Turkey along with parts of Bulgaria and Eastern Greece. There were other Thraco-Roman emperors as well, I just picked one arbitrarily. My main point was “not white”.
Go right ahead! I’m interested in the point you’re looking to make. And if your point is also “not white”, be sure to also address it to all the people whose Italy is filled with Brits that make milk look tan.
My point is that, if you’re trying to say that someone from the Balkans is not white you’re just wrong.
Balkan is a region from the Caucasus so they are more Caucasian than any of the white/Caucasian from the USA today.
They’re not British-white is my point, but I probably should have said so explicitly. I assumed that a reader would be familiar with the phenomenon of shows about Rome being cast predominantly British, but in hindsight, that’s a bold assumption to make.
Wat
I mean, they’re both bordering the Black Sea, if that’s what you mean, but the Balkan is on the west side while the Caucasus is on the east. Unless you’re working off some other definition I don’t know of?
So today’s US and UK actors not the same “white” as the Caucasians in antiquity? Even if we extended that to the Balkans, that just underlines my point. I’m not looking to argue about specific terms for specific ethnic backgrounds here.
I’m talking about the fact that, by and large, historical Romans don’t actually fit the way TV shows the last few decades tended to portray them. I picked two decidedly non-“modern British white” emperors as examples of prominent non-mBw Romans.
If you want more examples, Septimus Severus was of Punic (originally Phoenician / Semitic people who settled in northern Africa) descent, born in modern-day Libya, which I’m fairly confident we all agree is not Caucasian, nor white, and most certainly not mBw. He is visible in this family portrait (although one of his sons was condemned by the other, which is probably why that face has been erased):
Does that look white to you, by whatever definition you would like to apply?
Ok. So
English --> Caucasian Balkan – > not Caucasian, not close enough.
And that’s not a joke.
I just consider very funny that the people from the region that gives name to the Caucasian “race” are not considered white enough to be considered Caucasian.
BTW this is a just a problem in the USA. The only time in my life a had to catalogue myself in a race tag was when I traveled to the USA. And it’s very stupid because I’m Spanish but I couldn’t tag myself as latin, they say I must use Caucasian.
Like I said, this is a thing only in the USA. Nobody cares about the “races” they invented.
I’m not from the US, maybe that’s why I don’t deal much with the names people give to “races”. The only case particularly relevant to me is that of a certain megalomaniac getting people riled up about the “Aryan” race which I’m sure we both agree was also quite nonsensical.
I mean, if we’re going by geography, Balkan would be closer to the Caucasus than either of them to England. I couldn’t tell you how any given ethnic people moved, spread and intermingled over the centuries, but as you say, it’s not really relevant outside the US.
That’s partially why I avoid the use of that term. The rest of it is that it just isn’t a useful term since it…
…is so broadly used that it no longer refers to any distinct ethnic, geographic or cultural group. It’s just a shorthand for the stereotypes and biases people attach to it.
Of course, the whole point of sorting people into races is racism, but we knew that already.
Granted, I was being imprecise, but my point was that many UK and US shows and movies scarcely cast actors from the Mediterranean or the various other former Roman provinces that would also have wealthy elites who would have to be involved in public matters as any other Roman citizen was expected to. Because that’s what most influences whether you’ll make it high in the Cursus Honorum: having the money to make friends.
Instead, they primarily cast “makes milk look tan” Brits, particularly for their elites. When the Senate of a Mediterranean Empire looks like they only ever hold public speeches or leave the house for any other social function when it’s overcast, that does irritate me.