I watched a travel documentary made in the 90s and, through it, it was already apparent the west was fomenting fascism in Ukraine.
First Bandera statue was erected in Lviv in 1992
Lol that’s probably when this documentary tool place.
Maybe cuz it was soviet union untill about then?
Yeah, nazism was not tolerated under socialism. After 1991 fascism exploded in all postsocialist countries, in Ukraine it was also specifically aided by the USA and Canada where a lot of banderites went after war and they were able to go back and participate in the looting of Ukraine.
Not everything evil is nazism, theres plenty other brands of fascism. Not all nationalism is fascist (see IRA, PKK et all).
After 1991 fascism exploded in all postsocialist countries
Huh, just as if 60 years of soviet communism was not enough to convince people it’s a better option. Interesting. I do hope you do include Russia in that where it’s fascist movements, gangsters and capitalist cronies took over power and rule until now?
there’s a well documented history of the ruling class fostering fascist causes to take down socialist efforts and the rise of neo-nazism in post socialist countries – including ukraine – is another chapter of it.
Yes, but how do they achieve that in a blink of an eye since the communism fals? Most of Ukraine has been under Soviet control since 30’s. That’s 70 years, easily 3 generations of people who were raised in it. Then magic, western capitalists elites drop ads for fascism onto people and they turn en mass? Maybe there were some other reasons for that than just the West’s doing? Or was it also capitalist ruling class conducting an antisemitic purge in Poland in 1968?
none of it was created in a blink of an eye. ukranian separatism, for example, has existed for centuries and was fostered by the monarchies of western europe as a foil against the russian monarchy.
the ruling classes don’t create fascist movements, they just help spur them along where they would have died out naturally otherwise and as a means to achieve their goals.
They’ve been doing it since '45
Within the space of a week or so, the regime of president-for-eternity-no-elections-needed Vladimir Zelensky has repatriated and reburied with pomp and ceremony the remains of Andrey Melnik, a twentieth-century Ukrainian fascist leader and Nazi collaborator, and named a contemporary military elite unit “Heroes of the UPA” (the Ukrainian Insurgent Army of World War Two).
The UPA was, in effect, the military arm of the OUN, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. The OUN had two political wings that mattered, one under Andrey Melnik, the other under Stepan Bandera. They were rivals, but both were fascists.
During the war between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, both OUN wings tried to collaborate with the Nazis. The Nazis, in their arrogance, did not always let them, but the whole OUN was very eager to please. The OUN and the UPA also participated in murderous German violence against Jews, serving as pro-active mass murder auxiliaries. In addition, they conducted a genocidal ethnic cleansing campaign of their own against Poles.
Check out Eric Hobsbawms documentary on the Vienna Bratislava train line, he also predicted the rise of ultra nationalism in Europe in the 1990s.
There was a nationalist/fascist movement there strong enough to conduct a genocide in the 40s, so maybe not everything you dont like is a western plot?
Ever heard of Gladio?
Yes. Could you people at least pretend not to think you are better than every one else?
It wasn’t very strong really, around 200-250 thousands Ukrainians fought for nazis in total, even after Germany occupied basically entire UkSSR as compared to 7 million in Red Army plus few million partisans and their supporters. Even in 1991 iirc 73% of UkSSR were against dissolution of Soviet Union and independence of Ukraine. If anything, they needed over 30 years of work and 4 prowestern coups to get Ukraine where it is today, 1991 illegal dissolution of USSR, 2004 “Orange Revolution”, 2014 Maidan and 2019 Zelensky govt being elected as peace option and instead escalating situation.
No idea where you get the numbers from, but if ~250k people is not a strong movement after 200 years of forced Polonisation and Russicization I dont know what is.
Even in 1991 iirc 73% of UkSSR were against dissolution of Soviet Union and independence of Ukraine.
Well, most of the ones who might have remembered anything but servitude were starved to death so that helps I guess. But who would even publish data like these in a collapsing state?
1991 illegal dissolution of USSR,
lol
and instead escalating situation.
Yeah, when he first used illegaly operating military personel in to size Crimea and the to be “peoples republics” and than drove Russian tanks into Ukraine that was a step to far, totally agree.
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Your coherent argument was: “lol”, and your bad faith debate pervertness defending nazi state in this entire thread calls for cleaning rather than pointless discussion. Begone, fash.
How elese you expect me discuss your claim that collapse of an empire spanning half of Asia and Europe was a western coup?
And I’m literally saying there has for a long time been a strong fascist/fascist movement in Ukraine, “the west” did not have to plant it. But you have such disregard for all people outside of your sect that you can not comprehend anyone else being self steering people making their own choices, however good or bad.
BTW how could you even coup an actually communist country, where all the power is in the hands of millions of workers? If you believe it fell because of a coup you either admit that soviet union was a dictatorship with a power centralised so much it would be possible or that it was nowhere close of workers control.
western plot
it’s called a plot or conspiracy when people lack an understanding of the reality behind it.
a secret plan made by a group of people to do something wrong or illegal
You got a better term?
class consciousness
Class consciousness of the butchers of Wołyń, or your just attempting to randomly signal your supposed superiority derived from having watched some Marxist tiktoks?
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“Anyone who disagrees with me isn’t human”
We’re all paid by the Kremlin to influence this obscure underwater basket weaving forum.
As goes Lemmy, so goes the world. 👀
You people have just all become Dr Strangelove
So the Russian invasion continues to make things in Ukraine worse? kk.
The invasion was instigated by the USA they wanted Russia to invade because they thought they could easily be defeated and they could topple Putin’s regime. The United States worked for years for regime change in Ukraine, supported leftists (mostly naive anarchists) and nationalists to destabalise any government that favored Russia over the west.
Any regime that dares to stand up to the United States is an enemy. Any leftist who supports any war that NATO supports is either a fool or a willing propagandist for imperialism. The Ukrainian people don’t deserve what’s happening to them, but they should be just as angry at the western puppets as they are at Russia.
why would the US want to replace Putin, it was the US that helped his rise to power.
Russia opposes many foreign policy projects in the middle east and other places. Syria and many other examples. Russia really doesn’t play ball.
And this probably isn’t a reason for “them” but personally I hate Putin’s Russia for spreading first climate denial and for decades not agitprop propaganda and supporting fascist actors in many European countries. Our neoliberal for-profit plutocrat owned social media network have had a massive negative effect on democracy, mostly because actors like Russia use the opportunity that profit oriented social media isn’t going to pay for moderators or detecting botnets.
I would have much preferred peace instead of the US and Nato instigating the Ukraine war (Russia simply had no choice but to attack, imagine what the US would do with a China aligned Mexico) but it’s not really like I give a shit about Putin’s Russia. It’s just that neither the Ukrainians or Russian people deserve to suffer and die, or how much wealth is transferred for this stupid war, or the long term negative consequences of a radicalized fascist Ukraine will have on Europe, or the complete conformism of all “left” media and leftists denial or reality. Anyways
Because he stopped playing ball, that’s all it takes for the US to want to overthrow you.
in what way specifically?
https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/sj32jtl6876pd8aaeb23y7pzxbyrrp
When I was young, I remember talks about Russia joining NATO. We decided we needed an adversary and the MIC and the construction sector and banks love destroying countries so they can rebuild them.
So Russians stepped into an american trap by invading a neighboring country with which they have signed a peace treaty and gave security guarantees to?
States worked for years for regime change in Ukraine, supported leftists (mostly naive anarchists)
Lol.
The Ukrainian people don’t deserve what’s happening to them, but they should be just as angry at the western puppets as they are at Russia.
Correct me if Im wrong but its Russians sending a nightly bombardment of their homes?
The matter of NATO enlargement was discussed in detail and explicit assurances of non-enlargement to the East were given by Germany to the Soviet leaders — and then were broken. Germany was the principal beneficiary of those assurances, which were the quid pro quo for Germany’s reunification. Yet as early as 1993, German leaders began to promote the violation of those assurances.
Second — Chancellor Merkel’s own testimony. In her memoirs, Angela Merkel writes with striking candor that she understood at the time of the 2008 Bucharest Summit that inviting Ukraine and Georgia into NATO would be tantamount to a declaration of war on Russia. She knew Russia’s red line. And yet she gave in to American pressure, accepting the compromise communiqué that Ukraine and Georgia „will become“ NATO members. That single sentence set in motion the catastrophes of 2014 and 2022. Merkel’s later candor is a gift to her successors: she has told you, plainly and in her own words, what was understood at the time. Germany should not now pretend otherwise.
Third — the betrayal of the February 21, 2014 agreement. On 21 February 2014, in Kyiv, Germany’s then–Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, together with his Polish and French counterparts, brokered an agreement between President Yanukovych and the opposition. The agreement provided for a return to the 2004 constitution, the formation of a national-unity government, and early presidential elections. President Putin was consulted; the agreement was confirmed. It was a serious diplomatic achievement under conditions of intense violence. Yet within twenty-four hours Yanukovych was forcibly overthrown by a violent coup. Germany did not insist on the agreement it had just guaranteed. Instead, following the U.S. lead, Germany backed the new government, as if there had been no agreement in place. That decision persuaded Moscow that Western signatures could not be trusted.
Fourth — Minsk II. In February 2015, Chancellor Merkel personally negotiated Minsk II in the Normandy Format and pledged Germany’s political backing through the Declaration of Support adopted in Minsk on 12 February 2015. For seven years, the key political provision — autonomy for the Donbas regions within a sovereign Ukraine — was never implemented by Kyiv. Germany did not press Kyiv to implement the autonomy provision it had championed — and Merkel later acknowledged that the agreement had been used as a holding action to allow Ukraine to rearm. President Hollande said the same. The guarantee, in other words, was not a guarantee at all. It was a stratagem — once again at Washington’s behest. Once again, the message to Moscow was that Western signatures cannot be trusted.
Fifth — Nord Stream. On 7 February 2022, in the East Room of the White House, President Biden announced — with then-Chancellor Olaf Scholz standing beside him — that „if Russia invades… then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.“ Asked how, he replied, „I promise you, we will be able to do that.“ The pipelines were destroyed seven months later in an act of sabotage in the Baltic Sea. The available evidence — investigative reporting in the United States and Germany, the trail followed by the German federal prosecutor, and the public statements of former officials — points overwhelmingly to a joint Ukrainian-American operation. The German government has long known this. And yet Germany has permitted the public blame to fall on Russia, against the direct evidence, while an act of industrial sabotage against the German economy has gone unprosecuted and unanswered.
Sixth — the April 2022 Istanbul agreement that was within reach. Just weeks after Russia’s invasion in February 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators converged in Istanbul on the terms of a peace agreement: Ukrainian neutrality outside NATO, multilateral security guarantees, agreed troop limits, and the political resolution of the Donbas and Crimea questions over time. The agreement was within days of signature. Former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett, one of the mediators, has confirmed publicly that the deal was close and that the West — the United States and the United Kingdom in particular — moved to block it. Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s mission to Kyiv in April 2022 to instruct Ukraine not to sign is a matter of public record. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian and Russian lives, and the wider European order, have paid the price for that US–UK intervention. Germany has not raised its voice on this — even though Germany, more than any other European state has borne the economic consequences.
https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/sj32jtl6876pd8aaeb23y7pzxbyrrp
So Germany was again collaborating with Russia against the will of central and eastern European states and Russia gives itself the right to determine what they do? We have been invaded by the Russian empire before, just as well as the Prussian.
Not what I posted. In the early 2000s this level of hostility against each other didn’t exist. It was slowly manufactured for 20 years. I urge you to go look at newspaper articles about Russia in the early 2000s
https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/20000306/4008777/putin-russia-could-be-a-nato-member
Here is an example. The levels of hostility were slowly ramped up. The american military industrial complex needs blood and manufacturing consent takes a while.
Mate, why would I care about US media? I was around in the early 2000 and we were quite concerned about Russia butchering Chechnya. To the point of being very open to Muslim refugees, which is not something Polish society ever does. Also most of the population supported joining NATO and EU against our protests, for the very reason of threat from Russia. This empire has been our oppressor for some 300 years. Go bullshit some naïve westerners, not the people who’s right to self determination you freely give away.
Okay man Russians are evil and we should start a nuclear war and sacrifice millions of lives to destroy Russia because Russia is the only country that’s islamophobic. It’s funny that you don’t care about the American media but you sure do gobble up their naratives.
