Determinism is an irrelevant theory because of Gödel’s incompleteness and the Halting problem.
Predictions are always made from inside the universe, thus affect their own results. Therefore, perfect predictions are irredeemably impossible.
Now, can the universe be fully predicted from the outside ? Who cares ! What is outside the universe, by definition, cannot affect it, so the question is irrelevant, again by definition.
The only case where that could hypothetically matter is if there is a one-way gate to exit the universe (if you can come back, then it’s just a weird part of the universe, not truly outside, so the first arguments still stand).
And even then, proving the universe deterministic would at best be just one hint that maybe the “outside universe” is itself deterministic, not even a full proof.
Also, observing the universe without affecting it is a pretty weird concept, with what we know about quantum measurements affecting their own results. Not impossible by definition, but it would look quite different from what we do right now.
According to our current model, we would probably observe un-collapsed quantum field waves, which is a concept inaccessible from within the universe, and could very well just be an artifact of the model instead of ground truth.
But again, this is all irrelevant until someone builds the universe an exit door. That door being one-way only by definition also means there would be no way to know what’s on the other side and if it’s worth crossing (or if it instantly kills you) before you do.
So, if we do build such a door, there would be no way to experimentally confirm it is indeed an exit from the universe, and not just a wormhole with a very far exit, or a long lived pocket dimension, or an absolute annihilator that doesn’t lead anywhere.
This reminds me of that stupid thing in fallout 4 about possibly being a robot essentially and how it was supposed to be some big deal but I never understood what difference it made
I guess the only part that’s actually important is whether your memories are “real”, in the sense that they relate to real events. Remembering things that didn’t actually happen could cause a few problems.
Also, if I was functionally immortal and ageless, I’d probably like to know ! But I guess you eventually notice regardless.
And of course, the main problem is how synths get there, which is by murdering the person they were modeled after. That part is definitely a problem 😅
not much you can do if your memories are wrong, they are just as real as they where when you started so why change? this is something that hit me real hard as a kid but i just brushed it off eventually
I don’t mean emotionally wrong, I mean like remembering factually incorrect facts. But I suppose that shouldn’t be a huge problem unless the institute scientist who made your memories in particular was a moron/prankster and made you believe some wild shit 😅
Fight what exactly? Determinism either is or isnt how the universe works, it isnt like some sort of external force of finite capacity that can be resisted by some application of effort. If it is true, then you have no choice but to act the way something like you would act, and the way humans are wired to think is in terms of choices and the possible outcomes of those choices, even if the choice you make and the thinking that leads you to it is inevitable. If it is not true, then the possibility of making different choices exists, but it doesnt look any different to you because you only get to perceive the result of following one set of them.
The thing about determinism is that while it may be an interesting philosophical exercise, beyond being difficult to maybe impossible to prove or disprove, it isnt really relevant to much. A deterministic universe looks, feels, and acts to us exactly like a nondeterministic one would.
I took it to mean fighting against a descent into nihilism.
I never understood the fight against nihilism, as if it’s inherently bleak. I came to the conclusion that nothing truly matters a long time ago, but that doesn’t keep me from feeling like stuff matters, and doing what matters to me. Subjective meaning can still drive you to pursue and live a good life even while you’re aware that objective meaning doesn’t exit. Happiness feels good, which is enough for me.
That would make it existentialism
This meme template usually ends with the like a dog bit, I wouldn’t look into it
What if some parts of the universe are deterministic, and some others aren’t? Or that is is deterministic sometimes, but sometimes it is not?
Then, would it mean that initiating a chain of deterministic events that eventually causes suffering makes me responsible for this suffering?
What if i choose to cut taxes because i think I’ll have more money, but it causes a series of events that end up increasing organised crimes? What if it was always the deterministic result of that choice, but the choice itself was not deterministic and I could have chosen not to do it?
Oh it’s even worse.
The universe is indeterministic. It’s probabilistic and uncertain, but that doesn’t mean you actually have a choice. Your “choices” are just determined by quantum dice rolls.
Anything can happen, nothing is certain, but you still don’t actually exercise will over reality.
That’s assuming that our current understanding of quantum mechanics is even close to accurate, just because we haven’t figured out how to predict the outcomes yet doesn’t mean it can’t be done
That’s called Hidden Variable Theory, but there’s also no indication that this is how the universe works and everything we find just reinforces indeterminism and uncertainty.
The most notable development is the math working out to make hidden variables irrelevant i.e. they do not actually help us better describe reality or predict outcomes of measurement.
The math doesn’t seem to care whether God is rolling dice or not.
That’s one theory about how it might work, our inability to come up with another way to explain the possibility of quantum determinism is not evidence against it
Perish like a dog it is then. There is no tearing down reality without you inside of it.
Have fun
Holy shit Mickey, what did you do to Pluto!?
Obviously, Donald will do whatever the chemicals make him do.
Occam’s razor defeats Plato’s cave. There’s no reason to think that the world we experience would be just metaphysical shadows on the wall. The burden of proof is on Mickey’s shoulders.
Oh yeah and Cogito Ergo Sum. So there is one bit of definitely provable knowledge.
“Cogito ergo sum” reaches too far. Discarding Occam’s razor, all we can truly state 100% is that thinking exists. Does it need a thinker ? No, the “thinker” may be an emergent property of the thoughts instead of their basis, thus an illusion too.
That’s not what I believe personally, but I think it’s a valid argument.
An interesting take, but surely there would still have to be some substrate to facilitate the thinking (a thinker)? A brain in a jar might not be what you think of yourself, but whatever is thinking the thoughts which you consider your own, definitely has to exist.
Occam’s razor is a rule of thumb not an absolute rule of the universe.
If you go with Cogito Ergo Sum, I think that’s the stance Mickey is taking. You only know for sure of your own consciousness, everything else could be a delusion of the senses. You know, like shadows on a cave wall or whatever.
Yes, and my response to what Mickey said was that why would we think that we’re in the cave looking at shadows? Why should I complicate my view of the world with the added baggage of metaphysical idealism when materialism works just fine to explain everything I see? Sure our perception of the world is limited to our senses and measurement techniques, but the scientific framework we’ve built onto that base appears very consistent and functional with its predictive power. It’s definitely not omniscience, but it works.
I only brought up the Cogito argument to point out that Mickey is incorrect in saying that no certain knowledge exists.
There is no burden of proof. There is only the experience of the here and the now. Everything else is stories.
I think a critical part of being a human is the ability for those chemicals to induce such feelings, the ability to wonder and see beauty is something special
Those old cartoons really didn’t hold back, huh?
The universe could just as well be made of only one type of matter. The fact that certain particles attract each other is miraculous in and of itself. It’s what facilitates complex matter and ultimately life. It’s also a funamental law upon which brains have evolved. It’s everything but absurd.
I think the usage of the word absurd in this context entails the third definition of the word here:
Or, as I love to say: you feel what you feel, it’s what you do with it that matters
