No need to explain a fact that’s famously known. Turn on the TV and everyone will be talking about Engels misunderstanding authority. Go walk in the park and you’ll overhear people talking about Engels misunderstanding authority.
Sure. Criticisms of authority typically refer to systemic authority and power structures. It’s not just the ability to compel somebody else at any given time. It’s about contrasting different forms of social organization. Engles kinda tries to handwave the entire concept. But surely everyone can tell the difference between, say, a kingdom, and collective decisionmaking. To handwave the entire concept of authority, to me, is just an unwillingness to formulate a serious answer. It’s denial.
I will say that most capitalists present some highly hypocritical arguments for what they call authoritarianism. I should sooner listen to the anarchist arguments, which also criticize the inherent authoritarianism in capitalism. One doesn’t even need to be an anarchist to engage with that.
Authority, in the sense in which the word is used here, means: the imposition of the will of another upon ours; on the other hand, authority presupposes subordination. Now, since these two words sound bad, and the relationship which they represent is disagreeable to the subordinated party, the question is to ascertain whether there is any way of dispensing with it, whether — given the conditions of present-day society — we could not create another social system, in which this authority would be given no scope any longer, and would consequently have to disappear.
Ah ok this makes it clear it is not Engels who has a misunderstanding but you.
But surely everyone can tell the difference between, say, a kingdom, and collective decisionmaking.
Obviously but the difference is not that of authority but of form. The collective decision will be just as authoritarian on the minority who disagree as the kingdom is to those not integrated into the power structure.
should sooner listen to the anarchist arguments, which also criticize the inherent authoritarianism in capitalism. One doesn’t even need to be an anarchist to engage with that.
The anarchist definition of hierarchy (and thus authority) constantly shifts to accommodate whatever hierarchy anarchists currently want to defend as “not really hierarchy” or “justified authority” or “expertise” or “coordination.” Parent and child, doctor and patient, teacher and student, elected militia command, workplace coordination, revolutionary defense, public health measures, collective discipline: suddenly these are not hierarchy, because even anarchists know society cannot function without structured authority.
The collective decision will be just as authoritarian on the minority who disagree as the kingdom is to those not integrated into the power structure.
Please rethink this.
For one, even just the outcome of any kind of collective decisionmaking process will generally be one that doesn’t oppress the masses, or at least not most of them. Whereas the king might decide at his own whim that he shall receive everybody’s firstborn baby to eat.
More importantly, there’s also enforcement. If we are comparing the kingdom to, say, a modern nation state with a police force, then yes, the enforcement can be authoritarian in either case. But you know as well as I that anarchists don’t advocate for electoral nation states precisely because they create an oppressive political class, as well as a capitalist class in the case of capitalism.
The anarchist definition of hierarchy (and thus authority) constantly shifts
I would also argue that MLs tend to shift the definition of authority to something completely meaningless (Engels’ definition) whenever criticized by anti-authoritarians.
Care to expand? Maybe give a more accurate definition?
No need to explain a fact that’s famously known. Turn on the TV and everyone will be talking about Engels misunderstanding authority. Go walk in the park and you’ll overhear people talking about Engels misunderstanding authority.
Fair point lol.
Sure. Criticisms of authority typically refer to systemic authority and power structures. It’s not just the ability to compel somebody else at any given time. It’s about contrasting different forms of social organization. Engles kinda tries to handwave the entire concept. But surely everyone can tell the difference between, say, a kingdom, and collective decisionmaking. To handwave the entire concept of authority, to me, is just an unwillingness to formulate a serious answer. It’s denial.
I will say that most capitalists present some highly hypocritical arguments for what they call authoritarianism. I should sooner listen to the anarchist arguments, which also criticize the inherent authoritarianism in capitalism. One doesn’t even need to be an anarchist to engage with that.
Sounds like Engels does have a good grasp
Ah ok this makes it clear it is not Engels who has a misunderstanding but you.
Obviously but the difference is not that of authority but of form. The collective decision will be just as authoritarian on the minority who disagree as the kingdom is to those not integrated into the power structure.
The anarchist definition of hierarchy (and thus authority) constantly shifts to accommodate whatever hierarchy anarchists currently want to defend as “not really hierarchy” or “justified authority” or “expertise” or “coordination.” Parent and child, doctor and patient, teacher and student, elected militia command, workplace coordination, revolutionary defense, public health measures, collective discipline: suddenly these are not hierarchy, because even anarchists know society cannot function without structured authority.
Please rethink this.
For one, even just the outcome of any kind of collective decisionmaking process will generally be one that doesn’t oppress the masses, or at least not most of them. Whereas the king might decide at his own whim that he shall receive everybody’s firstborn baby to eat.
More importantly, there’s also enforcement. If we are comparing the kingdom to, say, a modern nation state with a police force, then yes, the enforcement can be authoritarian in either case. But you know as well as I that anarchists don’t advocate for electoral nation states precisely because they create an oppressive political class, as well as a capitalist class in the case of capitalism.
I would also argue that MLs tend to shift the definition of authority to something completely meaningless (Engels’ definition) whenever criticized by anti-authoritarians.