Hard disagree. The amount of money and energy that has gone into manipulation and corporate lobbying has ensured that most people are brainwashed without ever knowing it. It’s NOT the people’s fault, it’s the ultra weathy
I don’t disagree with that sentiment, but I would assert the people still have the ability to stop the untra-wealthy, and the idea we’re helpless bystanders only serves the ultra-wealthy
The battery in the device you’re hard disagreeing with me on was created by slave and child labor. You knew that and bought it anyway. I assume you still eat meat despite knowing the environmental impact. Are you brainwashed too then or does how you spend your money somehow not affect the world?
Battery was produced in South Korea. Can you substantiate your claim South Korea is employing slave and child labor? Ensure you have a source substantiating both
I find child labor unlikely, but plausible, but slave labor in South Korean battery factories? I doubt it
What slight improvement to society is being talked about here? I know you wanted to participate, but try adding something to the conversation instead of a misused meme.
you are dismissing talk of holding actual problems accountable, to focus on inconsequential individual accountability, specifically using the “but you have are using an iphone, i am very smart” argument to not actually have to argue a point. you have been consistently dishonest in your messaging and it shows.
because our buying habits are shaped by necessity and availability. to argue that the individual needs to change would require agreement to the degree of millions of people all at once, who have the privilege of choice make a substantial change, and even then the systems in place would defend itself from this change. in a discussion about needing to hold corporations and systems accountable, you argue for the responsibility of the individual, a concept that uses the most effort for the smallest gain, if any.
the concept of the free market is and has always been bull shit. the free market ideology requires the consumer to have: 1. maximal choice, 2. maximal and complete knowlege of every facet of a product (a. it’s ecological cost, b. it’s social cost, c. it’s manufacture, d. it’s transport, e. its storage, f. it’s operational harm ect. ) and every facet of every other option to compare. as well as truth in marketing which is antithetical to marketing itself.
in a discussion about the need to hold the system accountable, attempting to narrow it to the individual is a distraction to progress
So what then? You are here, clearly you are participating as well. There is no ethical consumption here. I doubt the rocks you’re throwing are thrown from somewhere safe when they inevitably get thrown back.
I live a very minimal life, often to my own determent. I do the best I can to lessen my impact and contribution to other’s suffering.
I get more rocks thrown at me for speaking my mind on these types of topics because people absolutely hate the idea that they have more control in this awful system than they want to admit. It’s worse now because more and more people are calling for change, but refuse to sacrifice their comforts to enact that change. They’ll blame the system for making rent too high and fearing homelessness, but at the same time twiddle their thumbs while rent goes up and more people are forced into the homelessness they fear.
You want the people fight for the better. That’s I think noble. But at the same time you argue against that the enemy is the government, and you put the blame on ordinary people instead. So you want people to fight themselves. I want people to fight the government. Law is the solution for many of these issues. E.g.: It’s not big pollution vs small pollution, I’d like NO pollution.
The point is that it’s your choice where to make sacrifices for the causes you believe in. Everybody already knows that fossil fuels cause pollution, this is not some big secret. People don’t just get to hide behind “brainwashing” as a defense.
It’s not really a choice though. We have to work harder, longer, faster for a wage that doesn’t increase anywhere as fast as the efficiency of the workers. We have no time to do things the old way. I literally sacrificed a week of vacation to set up my homelab because I want to reduce my dependency on techbro bullshit. In many countries everything is done via smartphones. It’s near impossible to live without one. It wouldn’t be so bad if techbros wouldn’t come up with addiction driven software, but here we are.
And yes, many people are brainwashed into hating vegans. They are being controlled by the media they consume.
If our schools would teach the children his fucking bad all this tech is, we might stand a chance. But again, schools are controlled by rich assholes in power.
You just said that you sacrificed a week of vacation to reduce dependence on big tech. This is exactly what I’m talking about. Some people choose to spend effort on tech independence. Some people focus on veganism. Some people make sacrifices for the environment. Etc. These are all choices.
Yeah I think everyone gets that, but what then? We can acknowledge that the path of least resistance is destructive, while also acknowledging that some folks will be on that path through no fault of their own, and the rest of us are heavily incentivized to follow that path. It’s far more efficient to try and fix the system routing the paths, than to individually change everyone’s behavior en masse.
To clarify, I’m all for fossil fuel regulation. The fossil fuel industry is different from most in that it has huge externalities, and those can only be controlled via regulation (as explained by Tragedy of the Commons). However, what I’m saying is that personal responsibility is still important. In fact, in a democracy it’s basically all that matters. Whether you vote for public policy or you vote with your wallet, both have the power to affect change.
Changing the system and rerouting the paths and forcing everybody to follow, sounds nice in theory. And in this case I do agree that some regulation is necessary. However changing the system can end up enormously good and also enormously bad. It has both incredible power and risk. The problem is that nobody agrees on how to change it. Every few years the group in power changes, and reverses the policies created by the opposing group. I am not confident that this is as efficient as you say it is.
What I don’t like about resorting to regulation, is that it’s all or nothing. The policy passes or it doesn’t. The free market is much more flexible. If 20% of people vote with their wallet, that wouldn’t have been enough to get a policy to pass, but it sure is enough to get an industry to re-think their strategy and try to re-capture that 20%.
this idea of “brainwashing” is a convenient way to dodge personal responsibility. Next time I think about returning the shopping cart I’ll remember I’m “brainwashed” and leave it in the middle of the parking lot. I guess the US people who voted for Trump, are blameless because propaganda exists. I guess the people who use AI tools to write code or make art, are blameless because advertising exists.
We’re on lemmy right now because we chose to be on it. It doesn’t take an ultra wealthy person to do that.
Hard disagree. The amount of money and energy that has gone into manipulation and corporate lobbying has ensured that most people are brainwashed without ever knowing it. It’s NOT the people’s fault, it’s the ultra weathy
I don’t disagree with that sentiment, but I would assert the people still have the ability to stop the untra-wealthy, and the idea we’re helpless bystanders only serves the ultra-wealthy
The battery in the device you’re hard disagreeing with me on was created by slave and child labor. You knew that and bought it anyway. I assume you still eat meat despite knowing the environmental impact. Are you brainwashed too then or does how you spend your money somehow not affect the world?
Battery was produced in South Korea. Can you substantiate your claim South Korea is employing slave and child labor? Ensure you have a source substantiating both
I find child labor unlikely, but plausible, but slave labor in South Korean battery factories? I doubt it
This is literally the ‘we live in a society, curious’ meme.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/036/647/Screen_Shot_2021-03-01_at_2.28.39_PM.jpg
👍
What slight improvement to society is being talked about here? I know you wanted to participate, but try adding something to the conversation instead of a misused meme.
you are dismissing talk of holding actual problems accountable, to focus on inconsequential individual accountability, specifically using the “but you have are using an iphone, i am very smart” argument to not actually have to argue a point. you have been consistently dishonest in your messaging and it shows.
Thanks for dismanteling his argumentation and putting it into context so well :)
“Thanks for supporting the opinion I already have because considering the alternative feels bad :)” - jafra
Inconsequential? How is our buying habits inconsequential? You can’t hold a problem accountable…
purchases don’t cause production.
because our buying habits are shaped by necessity and availability. to argue that the individual needs to change would require agreement to the degree of millions of people all at once, who have the privilege of choice make a substantial change, and even then the systems in place would defend itself from this change. in a discussion about needing to hold corporations and systems accountable, you argue for the responsibility of the individual, a concept that uses the most effort for the smallest gain, if any.
the concept of the free market is and has always been bull shit. the free market ideology requires the consumer to have: 1. maximal choice, 2. maximal and complete knowlege of every facet of a product (a. it’s ecological cost, b. it’s social cost, c. it’s manufacture, d. it’s transport, e. its storage, f. it’s operational harm ect. ) and every facet of every other option to compare. as well as truth in marketing which is antithetical to marketing itself.
in a discussion about the need to hold the system accountable, attempting to narrow it to the individual is a distraction to progress
So what then? You are here, clearly you are participating as well. There is no ethical consumption here. I doubt the rocks you’re throwing are thrown from somewhere safe when they inevitably get thrown back.
I live a very minimal life, often to my own determent. I do the best I can to lessen my impact and contribution to other’s suffering.
I get more rocks thrown at me for speaking my mind on these types of topics because people absolutely hate the idea that they have more control in this awful system than they want to admit. It’s worse now because more and more people are calling for change, but refuse to sacrifice their comforts to enact that change. They’ll blame the system for making rent too high and fearing homelessness, but at the same time twiddle their thumbs while rent goes up and more people are forced into the homelessness they fear.
You want the people fight for the better. That’s I think noble. But at the same time you argue against that the enemy is the government, and you put the blame on ordinary people instead. So you want people to fight themselves. I want people to fight the government. Law is the solution for many of these issues. E.g.: It’s not big pollution vs small pollution, I’d like NO pollution.
I haven’t said people are the problem; all I’ve said is we contribute to it more than people like to admit.
The point is that it’s your choice where to make sacrifices for the causes you believe in. Everybody already knows that fossil fuels cause pollution, this is not some big secret. People don’t just get to hide behind “brainwashing” as a defense.
It’s not really a choice though. We have to work harder, longer, faster for a wage that doesn’t increase anywhere as fast as the efficiency of the workers. We have no time to do things the old way. I literally sacrificed a week of vacation to set up my homelab because I want to reduce my dependency on techbro bullshit. In many countries everything is done via smartphones. It’s near impossible to live without one. It wouldn’t be so bad if techbros wouldn’t come up with addiction driven software, but here we are.
And yes, many people are brainwashed into hating vegans. They are being controlled by the media they consume.
If our schools would teach the children his fucking bad all this tech is, we might stand a chance. But again, schools are controlled by rich assholes in power.
You just said that you sacrificed a week of vacation to reduce dependence on big tech. This is exactly what I’m talking about. Some people choose to spend effort on tech independence. Some people focus on veganism. Some people make sacrifices for the environment. Etc. These are all choices.
Yeah I think everyone gets that, but what then? We can acknowledge that the path of least resistance is destructive, while also acknowledging that some folks will be on that path through no fault of their own, and the rest of us are heavily incentivized to follow that path. It’s far more efficient to try and fix the system routing the paths, than to individually change everyone’s behavior en masse.
To clarify, I’m all for fossil fuel regulation. The fossil fuel industry is different from most in that it has huge externalities, and those can only be controlled via regulation (as explained by Tragedy of the Commons). However, what I’m saying is that personal responsibility is still important. In fact, in a democracy it’s basically all that matters. Whether you vote for public policy or you vote with your wallet, both have the power to affect change.
Changing the system and rerouting the paths and forcing everybody to follow, sounds nice in theory. And in this case I do agree that some regulation is necessary. However changing the system can end up enormously good and also enormously bad. It has both incredible power and risk. The problem is that nobody agrees on how to change it. Every few years the group in power changes, and reverses the policies created by the opposing group. I am not confident that this is as efficient as you say it is.
What I don’t like about resorting to regulation, is that it’s all or nothing. The policy passes or it doesn’t. The free market is much more flexible. If 20% of people vote with their wallet, that wouldn’t have been enough to get a policy to pass, but it sure is enough to get an industry to re-think their strategy and try to re-capture that 20%.
this idea of “brainwashing” is a convenient way to dodge personal responsibility. Next time I think about returning the shopping cart I’ll remember I’m “brainwashed” and leave it in the middle of the parking lot. I guess the US people who voted for Trump, are blameless because propaganda exists. I guess the people who use AI tools to write code or make art, are blameless because advertising exists.
We’re on lemmy right now because we chose to be on it. It doesn’t take an ultra wealthy person to do that.
I’m not wasting any more energy on you. Have fun being cynical
You’re the one being cynical, telling people they don’t have personal responsibility