Discussing politics and other contentious sunjects online feels to me like it’s counterproductive these days and even though I try not to get suckered in, I often can’t help myself. Usually though I just end up feeling frustrated and sometimes angry at the other person either missing my points or refusing to accept them.
Thinking back to conversations I’ve had here and previously on Reddit, not only can I not remember an example of me “winning” the discussion and the other person changing their mind or conceding the point, I also cannot think of a time where my mind was changed either.
So have you ever begun a discussion online with someone with a different view point to yours and either you, or they, changed the others mind?
Yeah, several time on lemmy. Maybe like once ever for 7 years of reddit lol.
You could never know. A lot of people are not self confident enough To admit they were wrong. Even of they do, they may not tell you.
I’ve definitely had people reconsider their stance by bringing in more data or an alternative perspective but I’m not sure if anyone has ever admitted to having their view change about something. Then again, I don’t always announce it either despite the fact that it does happen so I guess it’s safe to assume I’ve then made it happen too.
In all honesty though, most online arguments are people talking past each other and disagreeing on minute details. Often the conclusion is “we’re broadly in agreement but we disagree about this one thing.”
That’s why it’s so ridiculous that people treat disagreement as if the person must then hold the exact opposite view. That is almost never the case.
Yes, there were a few times I have managed to convince someone on here, even on “political” topics. Not so much on Reddit.
Plenty of times I’ve been convinced that I was wrong about important things as well, which I always try to own.
I wouldn’t say there’s definitive “winning” or “losing” an online argument. This is a public forum, your arguments are there for everyone to see, even if the person you’re talking to still disagrees by the end it may help someone else form a more informed opinion.
Yes but I don’t remember what
I have had my mind changed, or at the very least been introduced to new ideas that I then went on to explore, which led to me changing my mind.
Online arguments are for the audience, anyway. This is more obvious if you watch some old debate videos from the mid 2010s, especially involving right wing “intellectuals” like JP. He is clearly uninterested in convincing his opponent. Most of the time, his aim is to (a) confuse and (b) enrage his opponent, and then adjust his suit and tie, lean back, and smugly tell them to calm down.
It’s not debating to convince your opponent (or even the audience) of your ideas, hence his tendency for useless tangents and unnecessarily esoteric language. It’s debating to look like the smart and collected guy, while making your opponent look unhinged in comparison. It’s not about the substance, it’s about the show.
He is clearly uninterested in convincing his opponent.
Having watched his debates with Sam Harris, I’ll at least give him credit for being able to steelman the views he’s arguing against.
Whether one is able to get others to change their deeply held beliefs is another thing but simply being able to demonstrate that you’ve actually understood the point you’re arguing against is a rare skill in of itself.
Debating is not how you change someone’s mind. You can change the mind of an undecided audience perhaps, but not who you’re debating.
I discuss on social media media to hear other opinions and it constantly helps me to change my mind. I won’t broadcast that though. I presume the same is true for most others as well.
Not exactly, but one time way way back in the day when I was on Reddit, I was debating this far right guy on some kind of culture war issue and I told him if he was such a gigachad who was gonna get a wife and make a ton of white babies, why not do it? Get offline, delete his reddit, and go live in the real world.
He messages me, “okay” and some time later, I see he deleted his reddit account. Legit, it was gone. I felt almost proud of him in that moment. I hope he is out there living his best life and moved away from online arguing.
The other way around (who has been convinced themselves) would make more sense imo, because when people change their mind about things it happens after they’ve had time to process it, not immediately on the spot. If you change someone’s mind with an argument online you are likely not going to find out about it. I’ve changed my mind about a lot of things and what people say online plays a big role in that, but it happens later, unless it was like a clear factual oversight on my part in which case I try to admit glaring mistakes.
It’s rare, but I’ve been on both convincer and convinced sides. If both people arguing are rational, it often ends with both of them learning something new and adjusting their worldviews to fit each other.
Though usually it very quickly becomes obvious whether the other person actually looks for a debate or is just trying to provoke an emotional response.
My strategy is usually to ask them questions that challenge their assumptions. Studies have shown this to be the best way to get someone to change there mind. However, most of the time they stop replying before I can gage if they have changed their mind or not. I assume that my questions make them uncomfortable so they stop engaging instead of evaluating their opinions.
Is that right?
Debates aren’t always about changing the mind of the person you’re debating, they are about presenting your ideas to an audience.
Follow up question: Have you ever read a thread where a bunch of people are arguing and changed your opinion because of it?
Personally, I’ve never changed my mind because of an online post. I’ve changed my mind from articles, papers, documentaries, video essays, discussions with friends and family, but never from a comment section.
I have. But, they did have facts to back it up and sources. That helped a lot.
I did. Not from a single thread, but many-many accumulating over the years, combined with other sources.
It is especially true with new topics which I don’t have a pre-existing knowledge.
Personally, no.
But I think that I’ve become more knowledgeable because of arguments I’ve read.
You don’t even need cover the debate subject to win, if you can convince the audience your opponent is an idiot.
In highschool (which is a very long time ago), I was woefully underprepared for a debate. My opponent not so much. He made some very good arguments. Unfortunately, he made a fatal mistake with his opening, “Good morning”. It was the first period after lunch.
That allowed me to eviscerate him. If you don’t even know what time of day it is, how can you possibly know anything about the subject of the debate.
I won the debate handily. I barely touched on the actual debate subject.
Who/what decided you won the debate (handily)?
A show of hands. A couple of my opponent’s friends voted against me, but the rest of the class voted for me.
One of the friends complained that I hadn’t stuck to the topic, but the teacher sided with me. It helped that I’d been on the debating team in lower school and had seen other debaters treat mistakes in a similar manner. Having a drama teacher that loved theatre sports (which was relatively new at the time - at least where I lived) also probably helped my improv skills.
Bingo.
Have you ever perused a thread on a subject and had your mind changed without engaging? Maybe you had the wrong perspective and changed your mind or didn’t know enough to have an opinion going in but came out with a more informed stance?
That’s why I do it. And I’ve had that happen numerous times.
As person who use to be anti gay and racist I was changed.
Now I’m bi and have admitted to having it bad for women of color.
Which has led me to a happier life overall. Loving people is a lot easier than hate I can tell you that.
May I ask what changed your mind?
Do you remember Gmod? There used to be, I don’t know if it is still going, a forum that Gary (the creator of gmod) made called Facepunch.
I went on there to download models for gmod, dived deeper and found different subsections like news and stuff.
I am the type of person to tell you my beliefs. Well I talked about how being gay was against God and blah blah blah.
I got chewed out and banned for like a month. For some reason it kept going over n my head. Over n over n over. I went back and lurked. Read what people thought and felt.
Ended up losing both my faith in religion and my bigotry. I started seeing how black folks were and are treated. How the LGBT folks are treated.
Then I asked myself do I want to make people feel small? Is that me? I have been made to feel small. To feel powerless. I hated it. I wouldn’t want anyone else to feel how I have felt.
I will always hold Facepunch and its members in high regard for knocking sense into me.
That’s awesome! Thanks for sharing!
