“Oppositional Defiance Disorder” is a diagnosis that can get a student an IEP.
So a disruptive, violent child can show up to school every day - throw chairs, bring drugs to school - then get mom or dad to take them to the doc to diagnose them with ODD. It’s a manifestation of their disability.
“Inclusion” also means that these children need to be placed in the same classroom as all the other children. So 29 children are subject to the violence of 1.
I was diagnosed with ODD as a teenager (along with at least half a dozen other things). To this day 30 years later, I still think it’s the lamest shit ass label they could have come up with. Rebellious teenager? Nope. Disorder! Like GTFO of here with that shit. I had an IEP at some point too. But I probably fucked that up when I crushed up my desoxyn in the special ed room and got narced out. Anyways, probably irrelevant, but I always hated the label being applied to me personally. Ymmv
I can say I never assaulted the staff. Just didn’t want to participate or show up. Assault is some bullshit that should not fly regardless of an IEP.
No one’s gonna define IEP? Alright
“Individualized education plan.”
In the United States, a document that guarantees a disable student equitable access (in theory.)
Students get accommodations (changes in how students access content - think text to speech, extended testing time, or rewording a text to a lower lexile level) or modifications (changes to the content itself. Instead of times table to 10 maybe to 5. Or with severe/profound, focusing on life skills instead.)
Also they get services - speech therapy, etc.
However, legally, a student on an IEP is protected from suspension of more than 10 days across a year. It takes a lot of work, and anyone in a school building is already doing 5-10 hours on top of the hours they are actually paid for. This comes from a good place - there are hellish stories of kids being denied the things they need to succeed and then being suspended through no fault of their own.
The unfortunate thing is that schools are including students who are seriously behaviorally disturbed in general education classrooms because having a separate classroom is more expensive. Parent pressure can result in IEPs that essentially mean “this student can act however they want to with no consequences.”
The YSK of it all is - a lot of your kids are in classrooms where they are not learning jack or shit because Bobby is spending all hour watching TikTok’s at full volume, and no one is allowed to do anything about it.
The school is also required to have a safety plan in place for when this happens to protect the other students. The IEP protects both sets of students.
It sounds like you’re frustrated because you or a family member may have been impacted by an incident like the one you describe. It is also OK for you to request the help that you or your family needs.
All children are entitled to an equal education, and some need more supports than others. This system may not be perfect, but it’s much better than the harm and neglect that these children used to receive decades ago. Removing them from their peers at all times is harmful, but that does not mean that they are allowed to be violent and harmful at any time.
I am a teacher that is sick of physical and verbal abuse directed at me and my other students being shrugged off because the student has an IEP.
This is an ongoing issue that you can talk to probably ANY public school teacher in the United States about.
I did talk to them about the safety plan for my child. And I spoke to my child. One thing that was really helpful was having a supportive team of people at the school who understood my child’s circumstances and needs. They were incredibly supportive and helped us find the support we needed outside of school. Kid is doing great now.
While you may not like it, supporting all students is the expectation of a teacher. I’m sorry the parents are shitty to you, but a lot of that comes from having to deal with shitty teachers over and over again. You get to choose if you want to make things better or worse for your students.
I hope you get the help that you need (all care givers of kids like this need therapy, it really helps) and can think about if you want to keep helping. Otherwise, you’re the problem here, not the kids who need help.
You get to choose if you want to make things better or worse for your students.
No. The kid who is untouchable because he has an IEP who has spent every day either throwing things at other children, stopping class to scream curse words at me, or breaking the equipment I bought with my own money because I love my kids and want them to learn is the one who is given that choice.
Sounds like you only want to support some of them, but that’s not your job. Your job is to support all of them. Right now, you are making things worse for the kids who need the most help, and that’s hurting all of your students.
You aren’t in a place mentally where you can help right now and that’s OK, we all end up in that place sometimes. You need support for yourself as well. Go talk to someone who knows how to help, not only friends and family, not only coworkers. A professional licensed therapist will be able to help you. Get help for yourself and the success of your students.
How am I making it worse for the kid that needs more help? I follow the IEP. I show care and compassion for that student. Absolutely nothing I have said here has indicated otherwise. You assume, because of the hypersensitivity. My frustrations I talk to with adults. I just fucking bought a birthday present for the kid that I have been primarily frustrated with.
How many times in my career do you think I have watched a student carve a gangs name into my desk, brought it up to their parent, and been told I was lying? Do you want to guess a specific number?
You naively assume that if one does everything right, it fixes all the problems. Children are not computers. Some children are just not meant to be in a classroom with 29 other students.
I’m not going to hate on you here because like everyone is saying the kids need help, I think you do as well. Clearly your school is under resourced for this. You and the kids in your classes do not deserve to be threatened and/or harmed.
That being said, I know when we are a victim, it’s insanely hard to see anyone else being a victim, especially not the person hurting us. I think both things are true. I think you’re a victim and this child could also quite possibly be a victim.
I’m not sure what your purpose was for posting here. But I can tell you that your feelings about the situation are valid. You may want to however, reevaluate your reaction.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if you’re experiencing burn out. If you have the ability/time, you should practice some self care. I’m sure you love most of your students and couldn’t picture ever not being a teacher but, this might be time to consider a leave of absence or, a career change. Please note, I said consider not, you need to do this.
Good luck to you. This situation sounds miserable for all involved.
Everyone for some reason has hallucinated a post where I said that ODD kids don’t deserve help or services.
I AM A GENERAL EDUCATION TEACHER. I am not a psychologist. I am not a behavioral tech. I cannot minister to the needs of someone who will be diagnosed with ASPD the second they graduate K12 because they are one of THIRTY in that classroom and more than a hundred on my roster.
Yes. I am fucking burned out. I have been burned out. I worked as a tutor for a while and it was wonderful, because I wasn’t getting cussed out, physically assaulted and threatened every day. I wasn’t handing a kid a pencil when they needed one to have them look me in the eye and snap it in half. Unfortunately I need health insurance.
Absolutely no one knows what this job is like, but everyone thinks they are an expert.
It’s amazing all of the personal attacks and vile directed at me. Not unusual, because again that’s just part of my day. I’ve had to sit and just listen to how I’m a fucking removed because my dick is too small to get pussy and asking a student to put their phone up has made me the worst teacher in the world many a time, so it’s honestly not new. If I had any other job I would have retired on the sexual harassment lawsuits alone.
I guess I should expect this, since the last conversation I was having on lemmy was “it’s interrogation if you ask your kid how math class went.”
Fuck me for spending several thousand dollars over my career so kids could have pencils and do labs and make models. Fuck me for daring to suggest that students who cuss their teachers out and send other kids to the hospital should still be suspended even though they have ADHD.
We’re dealing with a similar situation where an autistic child is allowed to grab, shove and bite other children including my own because of their diagnosis.
Staff are powerless to do anything about it.
Inclusivity nonsense is hurting children who should never be subjected to these behaviours.
Are you in the US? If so, which state?
As the parent of a child with a 30-page IEP, fuck out of here with that ableist bullshit.
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That doesn’t make ODD any less valid of a diagnosis.
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That’s not how diagnosis works.
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That’s not how inclusion works.
A problem student with manipulative parents and incompetent faculty (assuming that’s even what’s happening and you’re not leaving out details) that you personally have a problem with is no reason for you to come on here spreading Facebook-level disinformation.
A middle or high school teacher typically has 100-200 kids.
If 20-50 of them have 30 page IEPs, you are expecting the teacher to be accountable for 600-1500 pages of documentation.
Where is the misinformation? It is law that IEP students cannot be suspended for more than ten days without a “manifestation determination hearing”, and cannot be suspended for “manifestations” of their disability. Which, with ODD, includes things like throwing things and calling their teacher a fucking removed.
These types of actions have always landed my iep kid into a self contained classroom. Always. Mess up in Sped, they send you out of district where the staff is allowed to put you in a hold for saftey.
Never, has a violent action in Gen Ed, been dismissed because of his IEP. Yeah, the manifestation is alway a yes, the action was part of his disablility, but they dont let him stay in a gen ed setting, we change the iep so he is in self containment.
If your school doesnt have a sped room, or an out of district placement plan… that… seems like it would help your problem out, a lot.
You’re really hung up on manifestation determination. You sound like you’re lashing out because you wanted to be rid of a kid and it didn’t go your way.
Your misinformation comes from the idea that parents are just arbitrarily getting their children an ODD diagnosis to keep them from getting in trouble. And stigmatizing kids that actually have ODD. And the idea that it’s either suspend the child or let them do whatever they want.
Look, it sounds like your school is heavily under-resourced and it’s making your job that much harder, and that sucks. But what you’re doing right now very much makes you part of the problem, and you need to reevaluate if this is what you really want to be doing. If I saw any of my kid’s teachers saying anything close to what you’ve been saying here, I’d be raising hell with the school and the school board.
Your misinformation comes from the idea that parents are just arbitrarily getting their children an ODD diagnosis to keep them from getting in trouble.
Not all, but yes. This happens.
I can tell you that my mother was able to bully a school into putting half days into my brothers IEP because she wanted to keep him home for weirdass emotional incest reasons.
your school is heavily under-resourced
I have worked across multiple districts. I have talked to multiple teachers from other schools. This is a matter of federal law.
Which schools aren’t “heavily under-resourced?”
I had a parent have a meltdown today because I wrote that their student stole something and lied about it. They were livid at the fact that I called a student taking something from me and telling me they didn’t to my face “stealing and lying.” Parents are absolutely happy to raise hell because teachers are just supposed to be passive punching bags.
Honestly, I strongly suggest you consider stepping back from teaching. For your own good, and for the good of your students.
Honestly, I suggest that you get into teaching.
Maybe sub for a day. Experience some of the gaslighting for yourself.
And yeah, being expected to just take the abuse is why there is a massive teacher shortage. The fact that everyone thinks their personal K12 experience makes them a master pedagogue is just icing on top.
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You’re saying “the US”, but I’m pretty sure some of this is dependent on state, like whether they must be included with everyone else.
Because anyone is going to a doc to request a specific mental health diagnosis to let someone act out…
There are multiple cases for an IEP, and they all require a coordinated approach with teachers, parents, and other faculty. This is not some sort of ‘get out of trouble free’ card that people waive to be given a pass, it’s meant to help accommodate someone struggling with life and help to get the best outcomes for them and others around them.
They don’t even have to get the diagnosis. Parents can request an evaluation to start an IEP and the kid is immune from suspension.
I’m certified special education and have written IEPs myself. The reality if not the intent is that it is a get out of jail free pass.
I don’t know where you are, but around here there needs to be a finding of need in either an emotional-behavior disorder, or an autism spectrum disorder category before an IEP is considered an option. That IEP includes a fairly lengthy set of accomodations and regulations to ensure everyone is following the special exceptions as agreed but none of it makes any indication that they can’t be put out of class, in fact there are entirely separate classes or alternative schools for those with exceptional cases caused by a condition or not.
From a California website but an accurate reflection of federal law.
It’s very cute how everyone assumes that the resources to write accurate IEPs are there. My first year teaching my “IEPs” were a spreadsheet with check boxes for accommodations… every school I’ve worked at has had kids with “resource room” listed as an accommodation without actually having a “resource room,” my “co-taught SPED class” was just me because they used the co-teacher to sub…
every school I’ve worked at has had kids with “resource room” listed as an accommodation without actually having a “resource room,”
So here is the core.
This, is not in accordance with the IEP, and I dont know the channels, but should be reported.
My son is allowed a break, at any time, to go to said resource room, and utilizes it often. He gets frustrated, takes a break in the room, maybe five mins the teachers say, and then he returns with lower frustration levels. Id raise hell over this. The best part of his IEP is this break room, and him being allowed to use is as needed. It is like, harm reduction for sure.
Do you think I haven’t reported things?
I’ve emailed superintendents and the state about things before.
I am trying to raise the alarm here. The system is broken and not working as it is supposed to.
Which seems like a problem with the the district rather than the process. A few years back our district had a major funding levy taken away by the voters, my suspicion being that it was at least in part due to having a fairly large church based school in the area that some wanted to pay for instead. That schools and teachers are criminally underserved is no secret, but it’s not a reason to be upset with the challenging student and the programs around them.
Source: a former spec-ed student of the 80s/90s now trying to navigate being a single dad to a chaotic kid while small town society sits back and judges
You’re a horrible person and should reevaluate whether you should be in charge of the well being of children at all.
Based on the fact that I am informing you of federal law?
I guess the attitude towards education on lemmy I keep seeing makes a lot of sense - the lack of reading comprehension is spectacular. Notice I didn’t even say ODD was an invalid diagnosis, but multiple commenters seem to have hallucinated a little bit of text at the end.
Yes. Because you not only made a post pessimistically cherry picking facts about the the thing you posted, your defenses are revealing that you are resentful and angry about it.
“Cherry picking” - it is a fact that students on IEPs cannot be suspended for more than ten days without a “manifestation determination meeting.” If the meeting determines that the cussing, skipping class, or being physically violent towards children and teachers is a product of the disability, they cannot be suspended for it.
You can find hundreds of teachers on TikTok and elsewhere describing being physically assaulted and expected to just deal with it.
If I was such a shitty person, I don’t think I’d be giving gifts to and smiling at a 16 year old who called me a fucking removed to my face. Probably wouldn’t be spending $200+/month on supplies for a job that pays me so little I need two part time jobs on top either I guess.
Cherry picking is telling specific facts without telling other facts. You can’t beat accusations of cherry picking by showing how your statements are factual. You are being accused of omitting important relevant facts.
And just because you’re good at masking your resentment doesn’t mean you aren’t resentful. If you’re going to educate children, get a therapist and show them this post and your replies to comments.
Or you, know, do what most shitty teachers do and think of yourself as the victim of a system setup to protect children against your interests.
Which important facts am I omitting?
I’m not masking resentment. I am pretty fucking resentful that I am not a mental health professional or social worker, while still being expected to perform their jobs on top of my own.
I have been raped and taught the next day. Believe it or not I’m pretty fucking good at my job.
There might be some disagreement because each place does this slightly differently, but I looked up CA rules (IANAL). Based on the fact you stated they brought drugs to school, it seems like they can definitely be suspended for quite a while:
Your child has the right to go back to his/her initial classroom placement after the 10 consecutive days of suspension expire even if a manifestation determination meeting is pending. However, there is an exception if the student’s conduct or behavior involved weapons, drugs or inflicted serious bodily injury. When this occurred, the school can move his/her placement to another setting for 45 days. 1415(k)(1)(G); 34 C.F.R. § 300.530(f)(2), 300.530(g).
Drugs in general are a big no no and can jeopardize these IEP protections. Additionally, the degree of disruption due to their disability is 100% a relevant factor when considering LREs. This should be readdressed if their behavior has changed or worsened.
I’m sorry you’re having a difficult time with this student. I know in general teachers aim to do their best for all students in their care. It seems like this post is more venting than anything else but if this is serious and likely to cause injury to others I do think there are avenues to explore for this student that may be more beneficial for everyone long term. Having a disruptive violent child can be extremely damaging to the entire class, but I do hope that all accommodations have been made for them in an effort to prevent this kind of behavior from them. I do think the tone of some of your comments are not what people want to see in educators, but I’m just attempting to address the general points you’re bringing up, seeing as all of us can be our worst on the internet sometimes.
It is not a particular student.
The amount of disruptions should be considered but realistically the line is drugs or weapons. This is explicitly the line that I have heard from multiple administrators over multiple districts.
Can you keep the vagueposting on Facebook please
I have a young nephew that was lashing out and the mother got calls almost daily. He was diagnosed with ODD, put on medication, and his behaviour took a 180. The calls have stopped and he is participating like every other kid without incident.
You’re post comes off like something like ODD is made up and that these children to young adult should just be isolated. Fuck that.
Should a student who is violent and disruptive get to ruin the experiences of the other 29 student?
Teachers are not behavioral therapists. ODD students who can not function in a normal classroom need to be getting services with trained mental health professionals.
I had numerous teachers that had the skills to pull it off. Based on your responses in the thread, it sounds like maybe you should improve your skills to be a better teacher and mentor.
My sister has been a teacher for over a decade and my mother before that. They both learned the skills to deal with troubled children rather than turning to the internet to just take a piss about it.
What’s your sister and mother’s class sizes? Title 1?
Maybe you should go sub. Just one day in a public school. Title 1 would be best.
You’re raging against this in very general terms. As a snotty European I would throw in suspension as a disciplinary measure for humans in development, as all children in schools are, should only be the ultima ratio. So learning there are time limits on suspension terms for kids with disabilities sounds absolutely insane to my very snotty European ears.
If a school system in the US implemented inclusion without individual review when it isn’t working or is too disruptive for the other pupils, then I don’t mind you putting that term in inverted commas that much. I think you’re on the edge of ableism there though. If you’re trying to win an argument at a school board meeting, you might want to keep that in mind.
Many school districts are cash poor. They are being asked to follow guidelines for all sorts of things, not just the topic we’re discussing here, without also being given the financial means to fulfill them. The American teacher asking for go-fund-mes for classroom material is an established meme. That’s why out of principle I cut teachers and admins in the public school system some slack. So rather than running the risk of being misunderstood as an angry ableist, channel your anger at the people who make political decisions that affect your school district. Because I’m very confident at the heart of virtually every school related conflict lies chronic underfunding.
The American teacher who has a classroom with 30 kids where 15 of them are on IEPs which exempt them from being removed from class when they start throwing things should also be a meme.
You were at the edge and took a step forward.
How do you think a classroom with 30 children, with 15 of them needing individualized attention as laid out in a thirty page document works?
Plus another four sections.
If half of the students have “preferential seating,” what does your seating chart look like?
By the way, you read these documents during the 50 minutes you get for your “planning period.” 50 minutes to read hundreds of pages of documentation, while also grading, responding to student and parent emails, filling out random bullshit paperwork, planning for your next day. I’ve haven’t ate lunch in two weeks because I take those twenty minutes to just clean my room and set up the next activity.
With absolutely no sympathy from parents or the general public. No one calling me a bad teacher in this thread has had to figure out what to do when a kid decided to climb on their table and try to kill themselves. I’m not a mental health professional, and I don’t have the ratios that mental health professionals have.
I didn’t call you a bad teacher. And I’m much more forgiving of your rant now that I know. And I’m sorry I explained your chronic underfunding to you, like you didn’t know.
I am more forgiving of ableist attitudes ≠ completely forgiving of it. You’re mad at the situation. Everybody needs to let off steam.
I’m going to assume you have already sent your problematic experiences up the flagpole, to no avail. How are your prospects for changing jobs? Not necessarily profession but maybe at a different school? It’s no use trying to ride that tiger every day when this affects you this much.
For your own protection, you need to take the venting offline. I think you may have already given enough details for your bosses to identify you here. The days of shouting anonymously into the digital void are over. An LLM has the computing power and patience of an army to find and ID you. So if I were you, I’d delete this post, delete the account, and look for trustworthy ears who won’t rat you out next time the pressure in your cauldron is redlining.
I can tell you that every teacher in a title 1 school in the United States would echo what I have been saying right now.
I guess I’m just trying to raise the alarm. The system is absolutely falling apart at the seams in many parts of the U.S.
I had a student leave my classroom to jump another kid into his gang in the bathroom. He was suspended for 1 day. How is that safe?
I was Googling the Abby Zwerner case to link here, and found another teacher shot in the last five days.
It is cheaper to put severely behaviorally disturbed students in a classroom with no supports and call it “inclusion” than it is to put those children in an environment which meets their needs. It is destroying many schools in the U.S. right now.
Private schools are free to expel a kid who needs an IEP. Public schools are tasked with helping the kid.* This is a good thing. Imagine if all those kids with disabilities had no education at all.
*at least that’s how it was 15 years ago idk about now…
Private schools are free to expel a kid who needs an IEP
Not without a manifestation determination meeting.
You’re blaming the students instead of the system that allows that abuse you say you’re seeing. I’m sure glad I’m not your student if this is how to talk about them behind their backs.
“Blaming the students” - where did I do that?
These students need services. I am not the person trained to provide the services they need. Instead of anyone acknowledging this, I am just supposed to expect abuse from students.
So a disruptive, violent child can show up to school every day - throw chairs, bring drugs to school- then get mom or dad to take them to the doc to diagnose them with ODD.
You’re giving the student the blame in this sentence. The way you’re phrasing this is that it’s the student making these decisions, that they’re getting mom and dad to get them this diagnosis. Somehow with the specific intent to keep them from discipline in school.
