I’m actually not mad about tankies themselves. It’s their arrogant & intolerant attitudes that frustrate me. Instead of politely considering where I’m coming from, and explaining why they think I’m wrong, they just condescend and block/ban. I’ve found it next to impossible to have open-minded & fair exchange of perspectives with them, which makes me wonder how TF they ever expect to change the mind of people like me.
I’ll admit at this point I have a fair amount of disdain for them, but mainly because they’ve earned it after numerous run-ins.
I disagree with that perspective as well, since there can be no question as to the fact Russia was the aggressor. However, I’m honestly not very knowledgeable on the history (and not really interested in learning it much beyond a summary). I do recall there being negative things in the news occasionally regarding Zelensky well before the war started, but I wasn’t paying much attention, so don’t recall what they were.
Even if I disagree, I’m still open to hearing the logic behind their stance. My impression is that there is no good guy on either side, so since those factors cancel each other out that leaves just judging who the aggressor was, so Putin loses this one in my mind. I’m mildly curious how his supporters see this any other way, tho.
wild, cause this describes pretty much every lib that i run into on here.
I never understood why “libs” are so broadly hated within the leftist spheres. Pro-capitalist stances in some strains of liberalism, sure, but at least in terms of human rights, equality, rule of law and such, it feels like we should have more common ground with them than this animosity implies.
the common ground assumption only holds if you think human rights and equality are achievable within capitalism. from my perspective this is the core disagreement.
liberals believe the system can be reformed to deliver those things, leftists generally think the system structurally prevents it. that’s a fundamental disagreement about what the problem is.
Pro-capitalist stances in some strains of liberalism
pro-capitalist isn’t a strain of liberalism, it’s the foundation. liberalism as a political philosophy emerged to defend private property and individual rights against feudal authority.
you can’t separate the human rights framework from the property rights framework it was built on.
‘rule of law’ under capitalism is the law of property. it protects the existing distribution of wealth and power. leftists who want to upend that distribution are not going to see that as ‘common ground’
Way to illustrate my point. I tried to be fair and honest & you give snark in return. Well, you get what you give, but I’m sure that’s the point - you prefer not to have actual conversation with someone of a different mindset. It feels good (momentarily) to tell yourself you’re “better than them,” but really it’s just cowardice. It takes maturity and true self-confidence to open yourself up to someone different than you & meet them halfway to honestly & open mindedly discuss things. Too difficult for a keyboard warrior who feels safer condescending because they might expose themselves to being proven wrong about something.
Honest? Sure - to the extent that most people’s limited self-awareness allows.
Open? When you said:
tbh swaying comfortable imperial core people was never really at the forefront of my motivations, so i think you’re safe.
That came across as preemptively dismissive, as if you assumed I was pro-capitalist and thus not worth bothering with.
The fact is capitalism is all I’ve known, but that doesn’t mean I’m enamored of it. My life path has been… unusual, in some significant ways that both give me broader view of things than most, while also having limited my education about them. I’ve had to figure out a lot of things on my own, which inevitably means there are significant gaps in my knowledge. But it also means I’ve come to some conclusions about things that most people never think about, or are (self-)aware enough to realize.
When I engage I try to speak what I know, and remain open to mulling over the responses if they contain something I don’t, or hasn’t considered. All I ask is that the same mindset be utilized in return so that an open exchange of information and perspectives may flow from it. This is how people come to understand one another, and that’s all I really want to do. If I learn something that helps me improve my understanding and perspectives on things, then all the better.
i’m at the point now where a significant portion of my weeks are spent organizing locally with other people to create spaces where anyone can get hot food, produce and supplies without needing money.
to me it’s not so theoretical that these things would be not only desired, but fought and sacrificed for. i have had close relatives with first hand experience fighting both for communism as well as against the nazis and that definitely colors my experience.
you seem like you’re being earnest about wanting to understand my perspective at least.
Lazy condescending bullshit. We are forced to make decisions every day which rely upon conclusions made up to that point. There’s nothing preventing those conclusions from being reevaluated again for later decision making. That is the whole point of this discussion, for example.
Reevaluate what, specifically? I’m always thinking and reevaluating things. The goal of participating in conversations like these is to gather more info for said reevaluations.
One might say you initiated the “nastiness” that with that “quote,” which seemed to imply I’m thoughtless - something readily disproven by simply reading this entire series of threads.
Now you’re only proving their complaint to be valid. Please don’t troll - it just makes your side look at bad as you likely think they are. If you haven’t anything to actually contribute to the discussion, then let us continue without rude distractions, please.
Had it ever occurred to you that US born citizens feel this way, and that after 200 years, we’re tired of the loss-adverse, who lose more each election cycle, preventing us from trying something different than the status quo losing moves?
That kind of why I engage in these discussions - to learn what “trying something different” looks like, and decide for myself if it makes sense, or is worth pursuing.
You’re not entirely wrong about corporate Democrats, but do try to keep in mind that - outside of most blue politicians - the bulk of the blue side constituency is made up of a significantly wider array perspectives than the red side - they’re just blue because there’s no serious alternative.
the bulk of the blue side constituency is made up of a significantly wider array perspectives than the red side
literally just had the same reaction that i could have got from some maga dude, right down to the misgendering in this exact thread. i really hope you can appreciate that this isn’t a new experience for me either.
i live in a blue state, my reps at state and federal are essentially republicans with the serial numbers filed off. as long as you don’t openly say slurs it all flies under the radar in a blue state. money dominates the conversation and people challenging entrenched democrat incumbents get accused of helping the republicans anyways.
i don’t see what benefit there is to participating inside the democratic party in any way. certainly not in voting for it; we don’t even have a popular vote.
literally just had the same reaction that i could have got from some maga dude, right down to the misgendering in this exact thread. i really hope you can appreciate that this isn’t a new experience for me either.
Try to remember everyone’s unique. I can’t answer for that person’s response to you, but I hope you can see mine are different.
But, yeah - I fully get where you’re coming from. I’m the “black sheep” of my family because I’m not on board at all with their right wing crap, and after many years I pretty much instinctively expect the worst out of every Republican because they rarely deviate from the hive mind. Yet, I still wait for them to dig their grave first before being dismissive of them because I always try to treat people how I’d like to be treated and that’s with fairness & understanding.
i don’t see what benefit there is to participating inside the democratic party in any way. certainly not in voting for it; we don’t even have a popular vote.
The progressives taking up more spaces within the party of late show why. You really need to focus on the primaries - work towards keeping the corporate Dems from getting the nomination & we can change things from within. Unfortunately, I’m not really aware of any other credible approach available to us short of an extremely unlikely full-on revolution - but at least there is a path towards change if we work it hard enough.
I’m actually not mad about tankies themselves. It’s their arrogant & intolerant attitudes that frustrate me. Instead of politely considering where I’m coming from, and explaining why they think I’m wrong, they just condescend and block/ban. I’ve found it next to impossible to have open-minded & fair exchange of perspectives with them, which makes me wonder how TF they ever expect to change the mind of people like me.
I’ll admit at this point I have a fair amount of disdain for them, but mainly because they’ve earned it after numerous run-ins.
Are those the douchebags that think Ukraine is the bad guy and side with Russia like the Republicans do? No thanks eww!
I disagree with that perspective as well, since there can be no question as to the fact Russia was the aggressor. However, I’m honestly not very knowledgeable on the history (and not really interested in learning it much beyond a summary). I do recall there being negative things in the news occasionally regarding Zelensky well before the war started, but I wasn’t paying much attention, so don’t recall what they were.
Even if I disagree, I’m still open to hearing the logic behind their stance. My impression is that there is no good guy on either side, so since those factors cancel each other out that leaves just judging who the aggressor was, so Putin loses this one in my mind. I’m mildly curious how his supporters see this any other way, tho.
wild, cause this describes pretty much every lib that i run into on here.
tbh swaying comfortable imperial core people was never really at the forefront of my motivations, so i think you’re safe.
I never understood why “libs” are so broadly hated within the leftist spheres. Pro-capitalist stances in some strains of liberalism, sure, but at least in terms of human rights, equality, rule of law and such, it feels like we should have more common ground with them than this animosity implies.
the common ground assumption only holds if you think human rights and equality are achievable within capitalism. from my perspective this is the core disagreement.
liberals believe the system can be reformed to deliver those things, leftists generally think the system structurally prevents it. that’s a fundamental disagreement about what the problem is.
pro-capitalist isn’t a strain of liberalism, it’s the foundation. liberalism as a political philosophy emerged to defend private property and individual rights against feudal authority.
you can’t separate the human rights framework from the property rights framework it was built on.
‘rule of law’ under capitalism is the law of property. it protects the existing distribution of wealth and power. leftists who want to upend that distribution are not going to see that as ‘common ground’
Way to illustrate my point. I tried to be fair and honest & you give snark in return. Well, you get what you give, but I’m sure that’s the point - you prefer not to have actual conversation with someone of a different mindset. It feels good (momentarily) to tell yourself you’re “better than them,” but really it’s just cowardice. It takes maturity and true self-confidence to open yourself up to someone different than you & meet them halfway to honestly & open mindedly discuss things. Too difficult for a keyboard warrior who feels safer condescending because they might expose themselves to being proven wrong about something.
believe me, i am surrounded with pro US/NATO libs pretty much every day. it’s not a unique position.
do you think i’m not being honest or open? i am not interested in people defending capitalism. i have room for plenty of other views.
Honest? Sure - to the extent that most people’s limited self-awareness allows.
Open? When you said:
That came across as preemptively dismissive, as if you assumed I was pro-capitalist and thus not worth bothering with.
The fact is capitalism is all I’ve known, but that doesn’t mean I’m enamored of it. My life path has been… unusual, in some significant ways that both give me broader view of things than most, while also having limited my education about them. I’ve had to figure out a lot of things on my own, which inevitably means there are significant gaps in my knowledge. But it also means I’ve come to some conclusions about things that most people never think about, or are (self-)aware enough to realize.
When I engage I try to speak what I know, and remain open to mulling over the responses if they contain something I don’t, or hasn’t considered. All I ask is that the same mindset be utilized in return so that an open exchange of information and perspectives may flow from it. This is how people come to understand one another, and that’s all I really want to do. If I learn something that helps me improve my understanding and perspectives on things, then all the better.
same, you really can’t escape its influence.
i’m at the point now where a significant portion of my weeks are spent organizing locally with other people to create spaces where anyone can get hot food, produce and supplies without needing money.
to me it’s not so theoretical that these things would be not only desired, but fought and sacrificed for. i have had close relatives with first hand experience fighting both for communism as well as against the nazis and that definitely colors my experience.
you seem like you’re being earnest about wanting to understand my perspective at least.
“A conclusion is the place where you got tired thinking.”
Lazy condescending bullshit. We are forced to make decisions every day which rely upon conclusions made up to that point. There’s nothing preventing those conclusions from being reevaluated again for later decision making. That is the whole point of this discussion, for example.
And I’m suggesting reading more an Bd reevaluation of your own. Also, you’re the one getting nasty.
Reevaluate what, specifically? I’m always thinking and reevaluating things. The goal of participating in conversations like these is to gather more info for said reevaluations.
One might say you initiated the “nastiness” that with that “quote,” which seemed to imply I’m thoughtless - something readily disproven by simply reading this entire series of threads.
Move to Russia then boy
i use she/her in case you are unable to read display names
That’s nice
you should edit your comment, or are you just really invested in proving my point?
They are trolling. Plz don’t feed them.
No. I really shouldn’t and I don’t have to
Now you’re only proving their complaint to be valid. Please don’t troll - it just makes your side look at bad as you likely think they are. If you haven’t anything to actually contribute to the discussion, then let us continue without rude distractions, please.
Had it ever occurred to you that US born citizens feel this way, and that after 200 years, we’re tired of the loss-adverse, who lose more each election cycle, preventing us from trying something different than the status quo losing moves?
That kind of why I engage in these discussions - to learn what “trying something different” looks like, and decide for myself if it makes sense, or is worth pursuing.
it’s uncanny how for both blue and red maga it’s the same playbook, just different foreign country they demonize
also thank you i’m fine staying in the us, i like making rackys and owning guns
❤️
You’re not entirely wrong about corporate Democrats, but do try to keep in mind that - outside of most blue politicians - the bulk of the blue side constituency is made up of a significantly wider array perspectives than the red side - they’re just blue because there’s no serious alternative.
literally just had the same reaction that i could have got from some maga dude, right down to the misgendering in this exact thread. i really hope you can appreciate that this isn’t a new experience for me either.
i live in a blue state, my reps at state and federal are essentially republicans with the serial numbers filed off. as long as you don’t openly say slurs it all flies under the radar in a blue state. money dominates the conversation and people challenging entrenched democrat incumbents get accused of helping the republicans anyways.
i don’t see what benefit there is to participating inside the democratic party in any way. certainly not in voting for it; we don’t even have a popular vote.
Try to remember everyone’s unique. I can’t answer for that person’s response to you, but I hope you can see mine are different.
But, yeah - I fully get where you’re coming from. I’m the “black sheep” of my family because I’m not on board at all with their right wing crap, and after many years I pretty much instinctively expect the worst out of every Republican because they rarely deviate from the hive mind. Yet, I still wait for them to dig their grave first before being dismissive of them because I always try to treat people how I’d like to be treated and that’s with fairness & understanding.
The progressives taking up more spaces within the party of late show why. You really need to focus on the primaries - work towards keeping the corporate Dems from getting the nomination & we can change things from within. Unfortunately, I’m not really aware of any other credible approach available to us short of an extremely unlikely full-on revolution - but at least there is a path towards change if we work it hard enough.