This reminds me of a quote from Star Trek Insurrection- “We Believe that when you build a machine to do the work of a man, you take something away from the man.”
When I first saw the film, I rejected that. Seemed like backwards thinking, ignorant Luddite ideology ignoring the reality that when the machine does the man’s work, you free up the man to do other things. When a man doesn’t have to plow the field, he can focus on art and science and philosophy and music and poetry and otherwise taking his mind to the next level. At least that sounded good in my head.
Then I look at what we have now. We have built machines to create art and science and music and poetry, so the man is left to keep taking out the garbage.
This is not an improvement. The Baku may not have been totally wrong.
In automation theory, a “centaur” is a person who is assisted by a machine. You’re a human head being carried around on a tireless robot body. Driving a car makes you a centaur, and so does using autocomplete.
And obviously, a reverse centaur is a machine head on a human body, a person who is serving as a squishy meat appendage for an uncaring machine.
Obviously, it’s nice to be a centaur, and it’s horrible to be a reverse centaur.
The AI trend has been pushing all of us to be reverse centaurs which is the problem with machines you’re talking about.
I don’t think that in that case the tentacles made Doc Ock a reverse centaur necessarily, but I see the similarities. The tentacles weren’t doing the thinking, and IIRC the neural link increased Otto’s rage and aggression, and suppressed his emotions and compassion (plus his wife died so he had little to care about). Maybe there needs to be a third term where using the machine as a centaur changes the behavior and brain of the operator?
I think the older I get and the more I see all of us being alienated from the fruits of our labors, the more I realize that there is/was value in the reproductive labor of food production, clothing production, etc. I don’t mean that we should all go back to being serfs (though, there are studies that show they worked less than we do), but I think that there’s something lost when most people don’t have anything of value they can point to and say “I made that” or “I had a hand in that.” Most people have bullshit jobs that have very little to do with human thriving/surviving and at the same time, don’t see more people doing science or art or poetry. IDK what the solution is, but it sure feels like we’ve been collectively sold a bill of goods in a lot of ways.
Those “they worked less” articles often twist and lose the truth. They worked less on the specific work for their masters maybe, but they had to because they had to work at home; everything and I mean everything took longer back then. They needed more time to prepare food and darn their socks and split firewood for the winter and whatnot. They couldn’t just run to the nearest store if they needed a loaf of bread. They had to actually make it. So yes, they “worked less” but they also worked a lot more doing their house chores just to survive.
Any functional spin laundry machine is saving more time than anything else in the house.
I remember helping my grandmother with the wring washer: the tub would swish only but not spin, so you had to pull out each item and run it through the wringer assembly above the tub, like a giant set of pasta rollers just waiting to eat your hand. Barely faster than beating them on rocks.
I still hang laundry on the line to dry when weather and clean air allow.
You’ll note that I actively disclaimed a desire to go back to serfdom. My broader point is about the alienation of labor and the sole focus on product rather than process.
Also if we’re talking serfs specifically they actually had to work the lands of their lord and didn’t get anything in return, all of it went to the lord. Then also they had to work to sustain themselves and their family. It’s like if they made you today to work 3 weeks for your boss, without pay, then you can work one week for pay to earn your living.
I think the distinction is what we consider “the work of a man”. I don’t consider man’s work to be just physical labor. A lot of things can do that. I think the true work of humanity is to use our ingenuity and critical thinking to do more. I’m not saying physical labor is not important, but there are several jobs that require physical labor and take thought and troubleshooting. I don’t need a human being to screw in the same screw on an assembly line a hundred times a day, but a human being may be needed to determine why that screw ends up being a failure point in the final product.
There is of course lots to be said about the value of a hard days work and the toil and effort of physical labor, but I think we are all capable of so much more. It need not just be that.
I don’t consider man’s work to be just physical labor.
The key here is that the English language currently does a piss-poor job of creating a destinction between meaningfull, avocational, enriching “work”, and meaningless, necessity-driven “labour.” Anthropologists have found pre-agrarian cultures tended to do far less labour, but had plenty of activity. I blame pretestant “work ethic” for equating taking out the trash and all that with meaningful work that makes a person.
I get the reference, but that’s not really related to what I said. I don’t want to just ignore your comment if it’s a serious point, but at no point did I suggest otherwise.
I just don’t super agree with your premise that the “real” work of man is to do more, is all. I like to think it’s more to accomplish something with intention, craft, and rigor. We’ve disconnected ourselves from our “real” work.
My verbiage may differ slightly from yours, but I believe we agree. “Intention, craft” would indicate something similar to ingenuity to me. Obviously, totally OK for you to disagree, or think I did not explain appropriately, but my point was that we are not just beasts of burden, we can think and analyze and have opinions therefore allowing us to do things with “Intention” and to not just create things but to “craft” them.
The thing is that not everyone wants to do art, science or philosophy. Some people want to plow their field, they’re happy with that. Who are we to take that away from them?
Reasonable compromises must be made. I won’t lie to you, being someone that spent the better part of their career performing manual labor I would find it hard to believe you have spent any extended amount of time working a farm.
The share of people that want to perform, very specifically, back breaking labor is small compared to the number of people that would prefer to do literally anything else. We can make accommodations for that small number bit automating plowing but not science is a reasonable compromise.
This reminds me of a quote from Star Trek Insurrection- “We Believe that when you build a machine to do the work of a man, you take something away from the man.”
When I first saw the film, I rejected that. Seemed like backwards thinking, ignorant Luddite ideology ignoring the reality that when the machine does the man’s work, you free up the man to do other things. When a man doesn’t have to plow the field, he can focus on art and science and philosophy and music and poetry and otherwise taking his mind to the next level. At least that sounded good in my head.
Then I look at what we have now. We have built machines to create art and science and music and poetry, so the man is left to keep taking out the garbage. This is not an improvement. The Baku may not have been totally wrong.
I like Cory Doctorow’s take on it differentiating the two different classes of machine:
The AI trend has been pushing all of us to be reverse centaurs which is the problem with machines you’re talking about.
The problem is that you start thinking the robot tentacles are a neat tool and that you’re a centaur.
But before long the tentacles take over and you haven’t even realized you’ve become a reverse centaur.
Source : the ancient wisdom of Spider-Man 2 (2004).
I don’t think that in that case the tentacles made Doc Ock a reverse centaur necessarily, but I see the similarities. The tentacles weren’t doing the thinking, and IIRC the neural link increased Otto’s rage and aggression, and suppressed his emotions and compassion (plus his wife died so he had little to care about). Maybe there needs to be a third term where using the machine as a centaur changes the behavior and brain of the operator?
That’s Insurrection, not First Contact.
I don’t want to be a statue!
THAT is First Contact.
Also, 😭…
Nice catch. Fixed
I think the older I get and the more I see all of us being alienated from the fruits of our labors, the more I realize that there is/was value in the reproductive labor of food production, clothing production, etc. I don’t mean that we should all go back to being serfs (though, there are studies that show they worked less than we do), but I think that there’s something lost when most people don’t have anything of value they can point to and say “I made that” or “I had a hand in that.” Most people have bullshit jobs that have very little to do with human thriving/surviving and at the same time, don’t see more people doing science or art or poetry. IDK what the solution is, but it sure feels like we’ve been collectively sold a bill of goods in a lot of ways.
Those “they worked less” articles often twist and lose the truth. They worked less on the specific work for their masters maybe, but they had to because they had to work at home; everything and I mean everything took longer back then. They needed more time to prepare food and darn their socks and split firewood for the winter and whatnot. They couldn’t just run to the nearest store if they needed a loaf of bread. They had to actually make it. So yes, they “worked less” but they also worked a lot more doing their house chores just to survive.
laundry was a total bitch too
Any functional spin laundry machine is saving more time than anything else in the house.
I remember helping my grandmother with the wring washer: the tub would swish only but not spin, so you had to pull out each item and run it through the wringer assembly above the tub, like a giant set of pasta rollers just waiting to eat your hand. Barely faster than beating them on rocks.
I still hang laundry on the line to dry when weather and clean air allow.
You’ll note that I actively disclaimed a desire to go back to serfdom. My broader point is about the alienation of labor and the sole focus on product rather than process.
Also if we’re talking serfs specifically they actually had to work the lands of their lord and didn’t get anything in return, all of it went to the lord. Then also they had to work to sustain themselves and their family. It’s like if they made you today to work 3 weeks for your boss, without pay, then you can work one week for pay to earn your living.
Work with hands good. Need place, purpose
I think the distinction is what we consider “the work of a man”. I don’t consider man’s work to be just physical labor. A lot of things can do that. I think the true work of humanity is to use our ingenuity and critical thinking to do more. I’m not saying physical labor is not important, but there are several jobs that require physical labor and take thought and troubleshooting. I don’t need a human being to screw in the same screw on an assembly line a hundred times a day, but a human being may be needed to determine why that screw ends up being a failure point in the final product.
There is of course lots to be said about the value of a hard days work and the toil and effort of physical labor, but I think we are all capable of so much more. It need not just be that.
The key here is that the English language currently does a piss-poor job of creating a destinction between meaningfull, avocational, enriching “work”, and meaningless, necessity-driven “labour.” Anthropologists have found pre-agrarian cultures tended to do far less labour, but had plenty of activity. I blame pretestant “work ethic” for equating taking out the trash and all that with meaningful work that makes a person.
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?
I get the reference, but that’s not really related to what I said. I don’t want to just ignore your comment if it’s a serious point, but at no point did I suggest otherwise.
I was being a little tongue-in-cheek.
I just don’t super agree with your premise that the “real” work of man is to do more, is all. I like to think it’s more to accomplish something with intention, craft, and rigor. We’ve disconnected ourselves from our “real” work.
My verbiage may differ slightly from yours, but I believe we agree. “Intention, craft” would indicate something similar to ingenuity to me. Obviously, totally OK for you to disagree, or think I did not explain appropriately, but my point was that we are not just beasts of burden, we can think and analyze and have opinions therefore allowing us to do things with “Intention” and to not just create things but to “craft” them.
The thing is that not everyone wants to do art, science or philosophy. Some people want to plow their field, they’re happy with that. Who are we to take that away from them?
Reasonable compromises must be made. I won’t lie to you, being someone that spent the better part of their career performing manual labor I would find it hard to believe you have spent any extended amount of time working a farm.
The share of people that want to perform, very specifically, back breaking labor is small compared to the number of people that would prefer to do literally anything else. We can make accommodations for that small number bit automating plowing but not science is a reasonable compromise.