with a condition that terror group Hamas plays no role in its governance.
So Australia won’t recognize the state of Palestine then, because Hamas aren’t giving up power or the war would already be over.
That’s interesting language. It seems like they’re making a distinction. A distinction between the right to have a state of your own and recognizing the Palestinian state.
It’s what you do when you don’t want to recognise Palestine but want voters to stop yelling at you to recognise Palestine
It’s the equivalent of “I’m sorry you felt that was offensive “
It specifically says Palestine isn’t a state
Finally. Hope it does some good.
It won’t.
If they thought it would do any good, then they wouldn’t have the spine to do it.
We know they don’t have the spine to do anything with any practical effect, because otherwise they would have done it by now. They could have instituted broad trade sanctions, or prevented the export of military goods including F-35 parts and steel armour plating.
Well, what are the costs of moves like those. I’m working on a moral and humanist calculus, Albanese may be partially working on that, but he’ll also be working from a political calculus.
The US has made it pretty clear that Israel is their favourite protectorate. If, as you say in another comment, we are owned by the US, then does that mean in the heirarchy of protectorates we are lower than Israel and therefore likely to seriously damage our standing with the US by imposing arms sanctions? And what does that mean for Australian military defence? And technology supply?
For one thing, we’d have to be ready for massive and disproportionate responses from the fascists in charge in the US. Is our defence establishment ready for that? Our population psychologically ready for that?
I’m proposing these, not as my values, but to demonstrate that this is more complicated for the politicians than for ordinary people. PK on Politics Now podcast had a good discussion on this last week.
If ever there was a time to not be the US’ lapdog, it’s fucking now.
I’ll take the US ire over being a spineless shithole country like we are.
Yeah, playing realpolitik is an excuse that can only get you so far. When there’s genocide involved, and various other war crimes involved in executing that genocide (including murdering aid workers and journalists), that excuse goes out the window.
Good points, it is easy forget that a lot of the big IR issues are associated with the US and can have significant knock-on effects as a result. I do find realpolitik quite sickening when applied to human rights issues, though.
It is. Theres a point in things where you have to say as a nation we’re willing to wear the consequences of our convictions.
Its a shame that i feel that Australians aren’t willing to accept costs like those for what i still believe are broadly held convictions about how we want to live in the world.
Its a shame that i feel that Australians aren’t willing to accept costs like those
Aren’t they? Have they been asked? Labor isn’t willing to accept the cost. That isn’t the same thing.
Until a Government actually takes us down that road i suppose we can’t really know what costs Australians would be willing to endure, so i guess its my hunch.
Labor wont take us down that road unless they are forced to.
OK so my memory might be a bit hazy but even so…
In '99 I don’t think anyone knew we’d flip Howard on sending troops to East Timor to stop the massacres. The last rally (or one of the last rallies) we had in Lismore NSW before Howard changed his tune was almost a riot. I think it was Ian Causley, the Nationals member for Page who came to speak at the rally.
He repeated the same thing we’d heard for two or so weeks, something like ‘We can’t go to war with Indonesia’. Someone in the crowd yelled ‘Give me a gun, I’ll go’. Within seconds hundreds of people were chanting and yelling ‘Give us guns, give us guns, give us guns’.
He was fucking SPOOKED. Farmers, hippies, students, workers all chanting to be armed so they could liberate East Timor. I wish I had video.
Anyway, my point is, it has to come from the grass-roots or it wont happen.
Its a shame that i feel that Australians aren’t willing to accept costs like those for what i still believe are broadly held convictions about how we want to live in the world.
Well I guess that depends a bit on the context, because in this case certainly it seems like most Australians are now quite united in their opinion and its really the politicians who have been dragging their feet. But more broadly I agree, it has been somewhat frustrating to see how willing Australians are to educate themselves on the situation in Gaza and advocate on behalf of Palestinians whilst issues that are actually relevant to the Australian context, like the rights of Indigenous people or asylum seekers, remain areas of widespread ignorance and disinterest. I suppose one of the key differences is that pro-Palestinian advocacy really costs Australians nothing, so for most the opportunity to take a selfish position doesn’t exist. It’s free moral high ground with zero trade-offs.
I’d argue what is happening in Gaza is very relevent to anybody who believes they benefit from a world system that ‘should’ frown upon neighbours attacking each other. Australians in general i argue fit that bill.
I suppose indigenous rights are more relevant to Australians than whats happening in Gaza, although i’m not sure on that. The fundamental right to live in peace within borders of your community, even if un-recognised, seems to me to be a foundational pillar for indigenous rights to stand upon. In this instance if we don’t stand up against genocide and violations of human rights in Palestine, then it seems hypocritical to stand up for indigenous rights at home.
But the above assumes a faith in an internationalist cause, i think there is a stronger argument, without hypocrisy, if a person determines they have more parochial concerns and values.
I’ve left out the asylum seekers because there is always a very clear motivation to demonise and alienate that group in any society. They are targetted because they can be, and at little to no cost for the attackers. Its bullshit that people don’t see through the carousel of propaganda and lies that wheels around endlessly targetting immigrants. So i suppose its a rights issue, but i think its different from Indigenous rights. Their mix of rights are a result of gaslighting and prejudice. I haven’t explained myself well here, sorry.
pro-Palestinian advocacy really costs Australians nothing, so for most the opportunity to take a selfish position doesn’t exist. It’s free moral high ground with zero trade-offs.
I want to come back to re-read this when i’m in different mental contexts. Its right, but i think it’ll hit different as i consider different actor’s motivations.
Perhaps I should redefine what I mean by “relevant” then, because it’s obviously the case that Australians have far less control over the situation in Gaza than they do over the rights of people suffering under their own democratically elected government. Whilst pushing our politicians to recognise Palestinian statehood or end the shipment of military equipment to Israel is not a complete waste of time and is certainly a good thing to do, the reality is that it will not even go close to solving that problem or ending the pain for Palestinian people. Australia can only offer moderate influence here, it cannot actively change anything by itself. Domestically, we have all the power and can absolutely make meaningful change so what’s the excuse? We don’t stand up for these other things, that’s the point, so to frame this as a hypocritical position misses the point entirely.
Given the experience with Gough Whitlam, the consequences would (presumably) be a near-immediate LNP government that would backtrack on any conviction we demonstrate and further make things worse not just for Palestine but for Australians.
Alternatively the consequences could be being cut out of military supply chains in the future but like … pretty sure America wants to do that anyway so I don’t know if the government would hold out on war-crime sanctions based on that.
I don’t subscribe to the theories around CIA grand strategy there, the US has many fingers in many pies doesn’talways mean they’repulling the puppet strings.
I’ve learned a bit about that period, and Kerr really seemed to have a boner for using that power and being the big (conservative) dog.
Also i’m not sure its as simple now for the GG to go ahead and do that, i can’t remember the details but i think the GG’s requirements forbuse of that power were significantly tightened in its aftermath.
Let the Christian-Zionist and Judeo-Zionist lobbying begin.
It came too late for the Al-Jazeera Journalist and hundreds of thousands of Semitic Gazans.
Its come so late, but the lobbying and propaganda is always an ongoing threat Australia needs to be alive to. Mike Burgess alluded to similar, without naming names a couple weeks ago.
I’d say the crimes committed have reached a breaking point where the propaganda and lobbying of Israel has finally failed to be succcessful in light of the reality.
Its horrible that we couldn’t have the moral courage to be more decisive earlier, and act in the interests of humanity. This is a failing we own as Australians.
It’s not about lobbying, it’s that the USA owns Australia.
And yet the US is sticking with Palestine while we’re pretending not to.
It’s not about the US, Israel is capable of being shitty on its own.
Israel is capable of being shitty on its own.
Is it, though?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-military-aid-for-israel-tops-17-9-billion-since-last-oct-7
