The more I hear people talk about it who aren’t cis-het men, the more I hear criticism about the concept. But so far, I’ve only heard people say that it’s stupid, that it’s not a thing, that it’s men’s own fault etc. But I’ve yet to understand where that criticism comes from. I don’t want to start a discussion on whether or not it’s real or not. I just want to understand where the critics are coming from.
Some is valid. Men aren’t taught how to make and maintain emotionally open friendships, with men or women. It’s seen as weak or weird to cry on front of your bros when you’re sad. This leads to loneliness. This is real.
Some is not valid. Men claiming that they’re not getting laid and it’s women’s fault is bullshit. Or that women have impossibly high standards and are gold diggers. It’s nonsense.
The problem is that the “women hating incels” have coopted the term, and their garbage deserves to be mocked.
The sheer number of men who suddenly have no support in their life because their relationship has ended, that soon struggle with suicidal thoughts should really point to the first thing you said. Men and women are socialized differently as children and this is one of the most common results when we reach adulthood. It will take an enormous shift in society and ingrained values to fix that
That second point, yeah, women don’t need to get married to survive now. My grandmother couldn’t have her own bank account when she was a young adult, and banks would have laughed her out of town if she wanted a mortgage. My parents got married young because that was still kind of expected, especially in rural America. I haven’t dated in years, because it’s frustrating, and I have been able to, and lucky enough, to buy a home on my own finances. That’s not high standards, it’s just that I didn’t need to get hitched to have financial stability
Do men really not have any friends? I just moved to a new country and made like 5 close friends in the first few months, so that blows my mind in a sad way
I am the exception that proves the rule in a way. I am EXTREMELY open with my mental state and emotions. If I have known you for more than a few hours/days (or even minutes if there’s a connection of some kind) I will gladly explain to you exactly how badly I crave the sweet embrace of death. How long I have felt that. Why I feel that.
Men react in strange ways to that.
Women react in what you would probably call a predictable way. They are concerned, try to ask for reasons and offer comfort.
Men are sometimes curious, but most often, they just say, “same.” There isn’t always discussion about it after that but I don’t really meet men who have not considered suicide. It’s so pervasive.
I had friends but they’re all dead now. The best always have to leave early.
I’m not a cis man, but every man I’ve dated has had “friends”, but not people they can really talk to. Like, one guy I dated had a really big social circle and they regularly had gaming events. But he didn’t text or talk to anyone outside of planning and going to those events. Others had maybe one friend that they hung out with outside of work.
It is sad. And it was jarring when I was young, because I had lots of friends I could turn to on a bad day or for something more serious. It makes me so angry with “the patriarchy”, because it isn’t just keeping women down, it’s also hurting and sometimes killing men.
I had a cat die a very painful and sad death right in the veterinarian’s parking lot. I was completely devastated, but my poor boyfriend kept trying to hold back his tears because he “needed to be strong” for me. Bitch no, cry with me, that was super heavy. I’m going to carry that death with me until I die, and not just because my cat didn’t deserve that. It’s not fair for men to have this expectation that they need to hold back expressing emotion so they appear strong. (that particular ex also has a fear of dying, so he really needed to and should have felt free to express himself at that time)
I agree, I wish more men would realize that feminism also benefits men. Even things as small as being able to freely express yourself are hurt by the patriarchy
This is going to sound ridiculous, but I believe the perceived etymology of the word ‘feminism’ hurts the intent of the movement.
The word seems to imply that women should be put first, not as equals. Think of ‘nationalism’, those following that put their nation first, sometimes to the point of being derogatory to other nations.
So when uneducated hear the word feminism they may think it’s an ideology of putting women first to the point of being derogatory to men.
It doesn’t help that some people misuse it that way either
Men benefit from feminism like women benefit from patriarchy.
Men suffer under patriarchy, bro. It isn’t women exploiting your insecurities to sell you magic pills and creams for a bigger dick and more testerone, masculinity retreats, or super secret techniques for making them drop their panties.
It’s fascinating how few people are able to understand what I wrote.
Depends. I find making new friends very difficult because I don’t have many of the same interests and the rest of the people that I naturally get exposed to via my kids, wife or life. I work from home and don’t have much time for social hobbies. I go to concerts sometimes but I really struggle to make conversation with strangers. I can see how someone like me would end up being lonely for a long time.
Social hobbies are where it’s at. I’ve never met anyone meaningful at a concert. Hobbies (and activism) though, all the people all the time.
“Don’t have much time”… I guess it it’s important to you, you should figure out how to make time for it
Having a 6 and 8 year old is very time consuming! The good news is I have 2 nights a week of D&D which gets me a bit of social time. Though not face to face.
True that.
Just getting in to TTRPGs properly. It seems like a way to really solidify friendships, rather than to find new ones. But that’s still very valuable!
I’m having trouble making friends. There is one guy sort of near me and we do things here and there, but he and his wife are about to move. Most of my other friends live far away.
I don’t have a lot in common with the people I work with, or live near, and I don’t have much energy to do things outside of work. There is more that I’d say but I’m acutely aware / paranoid that some ai tool is reading all of our comments and building profiles on us. I’m trying to build a better life and find more communities where I feel welcome, but it’s slow going. Maybe that explains it somewhat?
Maybe you could tell us how you made 5 close friends in a new country.
Nothing else you said matters apart from this. You can’t really make friends when you refuse to do anything where you would meet people or turn colleagues into friends.
Not her but I am a woman who moved across my country and made friends within a few months. It’s social hobbies and active participation in subcultural events. I love bicycles, years back I got into volunteering at a bicycle repair cooperative, it made me some casual friends with whom I hung out working on bikes every other week. When I moved I found one to volunteer at again, though I haven’t started yet. Similar social hobbies/volunteering are great. And for subculture stuff, its just that that’s a really great way to find casual hang out events if you have a subculture you’re interested in. I know goths all over have bar nights, as do plenty of other communities. It just serves as a really quick and easy “hey we have this in common” starter.
When in doubt, look up events happening in your area and check out any that interest you. Chat with folks when you’re at them.
I knew of one person here prior to moving though we never actually met beforehand. Also met up with an internet friend at some point.
Aside from those two, my partner and I searched for community events and went to quite a few. Met a lot of people there. Community events are honestly a fantastic jumping off point. Ideally things where you actually get a chance to talk to people, check out local bars’ socials to see if there’s anything.
Also made one or two friends randomly just hanging at a park.
The trick is that after you meet someone, you have to make an effort to see them again. Once you have a few close friends it’s easier to get invited to other things.
Tbh, while I could start drinking more again just to meet people, bars are expensive these days. I can’t afford friends nor dates. Unless maybe I only eat ramen forever.
Finding someone romantic/friends is difficult when you haven’t fully AA quit drinking, but you’re also disillusioned with hammered bar culture and driving drunk and don’t want to do that anymore, and also would rather spend your money on not $10 Evan Williams and gingers all night when they don’t even have the good Evan which only costs like $30 for a giant bottle.
That follow up is brutal and crucial.
If this was true… Why is this an issue only now?
Or all these men were lonely in the closet?
A lot of social organizations that men had used started dying. I have a friend who runs a freemason lodge and he struggles to get people to join. Other similar social clubs have also fallen by the wayside. Similarly the decline of long term geographic community has been brutal and people are less likely to get to know their neighbors or become regulars at the local bar.
I see a lot of talk about how women’s liberation and the power to leave a bad marriage has been a component, but I suspect otherwise, having grown up with parents in a failing marriage. I strongly suspect that what a lot of these lonely men need is friends and community in a way that even a loving wife won’t cut it, much less a cold and distant wife and resentful children.
It’s easier to not care about a guy’s mental health when he’s married, even if it’s a shitty marriage. How can he be lonely if he has a wife, after all?
I’m happy for divorces. I’m happy for the increase in male loneliness BEING NOTICED. It used to just be the guy would work all day, or drink himself to death silently, to avoid the issue.
But the next step has to be for guys to be open to make emotional friendships.
Yeah as a woman I see a certain portion of men who seem to want to push resolving male loneliness onto women. But like, we genuinely can only help here. If men want advice from women on how to make friends and find community, we can do that, but like, even if the friends a man makes are women we didnt fix his loneliness, he went out and made friends and was vulnerable and supportive and got supported in kind.
And that’s why the incel culture is so popular. Anytime you have a hard problem, and pitch that it’s someone else’s responsibility to fix, people will love that.
Poor people " just need to work harder", immigrants " just need to come in the right way", women " just need to be less picky", and I don’t have to change or help.
I would argue that loneliness is primarily a problem of luxury. If you have to constantly fight for survival you don’t have the resources left to think about how lonely you are, you only focus on food, water, shelter, how to avoid predators and so on. You’re simply too occupied, too tired to think about how lonely you are.
I would guess it has something to do with the loss of third places.
That’s definitely a factor… Suburban experiment is objective failure on many levels but it has also to do with cost of being out.
Can’t go to bars or restaurants anymore. Shit is too expensive for normal income person to sustain in any meaningful way.
Also, DUIs but that ties into first point.
It’s not an issue only now. But we’re more isolated than before because we lost our third spaces and communities. Bunch of lonely wolves.
Yep. Robert Putnam’s book “Bowling Alone” turns 25 this year, and it’s as relevant as ever.
Its gotten worse because women are no longer forced to stay in or get into shitty, unfulfilling marriages. Men before had guaranteed companionship in the sense that it was societally and financially expected for a woman to stay in a relationship and provide emotional (and physical) companionship. With women becoming more independent, they’re able to leave abusive situations or to avoid getting into them in the first place.
Therefore, if men are not socialized to maintain friendships and no one is being forced to emotionally support them anymore, then they are lonely.