Now, I suppose you would agree that Amazon US cannot sell me (in Italy) an item that was not legal here, like gun, am I correct ?
If you, being in Italy, caused an American to send a gun from the US to Italy, I believe Italy would prosecute you for gun smuggling. It would confiscate and possibly destroy the contraband. But I don’t think they would try to prosecute the American. I’ve never heard of such a thing.
Do you think maybe feelings on such matters are changing?
If you, being in Italy, caused an American to send a gun from the US to Italy, I believe Italy would prosecute you for gun smuggling.
I don’t say smuggling, I said sell. And while guns are an extreme example, there are things that are legal in US and not in EU (and viceversa), liek some woodworking tools that were banned on safety concern, for example.
But the point is that Amazon US refuse to sell it to me in Italy since they know they cannot sell to me.
It would confiscate and possibly destroy the contraband. But I don’t think they would try to prosecute the American. I’ve never heard of such a thing.
Nope, Italy would incrimate (or try to) both the seller and the buyer in case of smuggling.
I don’t think I get the point. Amazon’s branches in Europe are like any other European companies that happen to be owned by an American company. They own and operate warehouses, trucks, “lockers”, and employ a lot of people.
I know that a lot of illegal goods are intercepted at the border. Products that fail to meet standards, even counterfeit brand name products, … I’ve never heard about the EU trying to prosecute the sellers that mail these products.
I don’t think I get the point. Amazon’s branches in Europe are like any other European companies that happen to be owned by an American company. They own and operate warehouses, trucks, “lockers”, and employ a lot of people.
True, and Amazon Italy have not on list items that are illegal in Italy, but you can also buy from other Amazon stores, I placed a couple of order on Amazon France, for example.
The point is that if I try to buy from Amazon US, the US branch of Amazon don’t sell me items they know they cannot sell in Italy (or cannot be sent for whatever reason).
I know that a lot of illegal goods are intercepted at the border. Products that fail to meet standards, even counterfeit brand name products, … I’ve never heard about the EU trying to prosecute the sellers that mail these products.
Because the seller know better than sell an illegal product, a seller know what can sell and where.
But be sure that if for some reason I order a book from Amazon US and somehow a gun is sent, obviously for some error, Italian authorities would ask both me and Amazon US what’s going on. Then ok, both us and Amazon can demostrate it is an error and then nothing came out of this (if not that Amazon US maybe does not get the gun back).
I don’t want to argue, I just want to know. You feel it’s always been like that. And you feel that way because that’s been your experience with Amazon. Would you agree to that summary?
What is your intuition about the technological background? When someone sets up a website, what do they have to do or not do, so that it is visible in the UK, Italy, … ?
I don’t want to argue, I just want to know. You feel it’s always been like that. And you feel that way because that’s been your experience with Amazon. Would you agree to that summary?
No, I had the same experience with every site that sell something. I cannot buy online a gun from San Marino from Italy. But I agree that not everyone respect that, for example from Aliexpress I bet I could buy something illegal in Italy (a laser over a given power for example) and face no consequences, but that because it is not really easy to persecute someone in China.
What is your intuition about the technological background? When someone sets up a website, what do they have to do or not do, so that it is visible in the UK, Italy, … ?
Technically speaking, you should restrict contents that is not legal in a country. I fully understand that it is way more difficult than not selling something, in the end if you sell something you have an address while with a website you simply have an IP address that could not be the real one (think VPN).
So yes, in this specific case 4chan is the asshole of the situation: it they want that their site to be visible from UK they should respect the UK laws, even if, as I said, the law is beyond stupid.
Normally, criminal laws apply only within a country’s territory, with a limited list of exceptions. Attempting to prosecute citizens of another country for something they legally did in their home country is a breach of international norms. It’s not just that it is hard to prosecute, it really gets you into trouble with the other country.
I checked Italy’s penal code and it does not seem an exception, despite the imperial origins. (BTW. It is a serious embarrassment. Is it so hard to remove just the overt fascism?)
Actually, I do remember the Italian state attempting to enforce some ill-considered IP laws against German company Ravensburger a few years ago. That wasn’t a criminal case but the state did want money. Of course, that went nowhere outside of Italy.
A pre-internet equivalent to running a website could be running a telephone hotline, or a mail-order bookstore. Maybe the bookstore sells banned books or media. The hotline may talk about forbidden subjects. Perhaps another equivalent could be a TV or radio station that intentionally broadcasts across borders, like Radio Free Europe.
I don’t think anyone ever considered trying to fine someone in another country over this.
Normally, criminal laws apply only within a country’s territory, with a limited list of exceptions. Attempting to prosecute citizens of another country for something they legally did in their home country is a breach of international norms. It’s not just that it is hard to prosecute, it really gets you into trouble with the other country.
That’s why I said that it would be tried, not that it would be successfull.
But again, the distinction is if it was intentional or not. In case of a error in the process it obviously do not even start, maybe someone would be asked some question, like “how the fuck you confuse a gun with a book ?”.
If it was intentional is another story. There is procedure, Italy should emit an international arrest warrant, then if the criminal it captured by Interpol or something similar a procedure for extradition start and the extradition could be denied obviously.
And it would not get you into trouble with other countries, there are treaties else it would be too easy to commit crimes.
(BTW. It is a serious embarrassment. Is it so hard to remove just the overt fascism?)
Like what ?
Actually, I do remember the Italian state attempting to enforce some ill-considered IP laws against German company Ravensburger a few years ago. That wasn’t a criminal case but the state did want money. Of course, that went nowhere outside of Italy.
I remember it, and it was stupid from the start. But as you said it was not a crimial case, it was just a what you would call a civil case. But yes, we have some very stupid laws and some even more stupid people who think that these stupid laws are valid also in other countries.
A pre-internet equivalent to running a website could be running a telephone hotline, or a mail-order bookstore. Maybe the bookstore sells banned books or media. The hotline may talk about forbidden subjects. Perhaps another equivalent could be a TV or radio station that intentionally broadcasts across borders, like Radio Free Europe.
Still the same point. A company that legally sells know what to not sell and where, or where to offer service or not, so it would basically not even offer the banned thing to you.
For example, up until some years ago we cannot sell various types of sausages to the US so companies basically avoid to even offer them. But if someone, somehow would be able to sell them, the items would be seized and the buyer and seller punished with a fine.
I don’t think anyone ever considered trying to fine someone in another country over this.
They considered it, sometime tried to do it, but normally measures were taken.
If you, being in Italy, caused an American to send a gun from the US to Italy, I believe Italy would prosecute you for gun smuggling. It would confiscate and possibly destroy the contraband. But I don’t think they would try to prosecute the American. I’ve never heard of such a thing.
Do you think maybe feelings on such matters are changing?
I don’t say smuggling, I said sell. And while guns are an extreme example, there are things that are legal in US and not in EU (and viceversa), liek some woodworking tools that were banned on safety concern, for example.
But the point is that Amazon US refuse to sell it to me in Italy since they know they cannot sell to me.
Nope, Italy would incrimate (or try to) both the seller and the buyer in case of smuggling.
I don’t think I get the point. Amazon’s branches in Europe are like any other European companies that happen to be owned by an American company. They own and operate warehouses, trucks, “lockers”, and employ a lot of people.
I know that a lot of illegal goods are intercepted at the border. Products that fail to meet standards, even counterfeit brand name products, … I’ve never heard about the EU trying to prosecute the sellers that mail these products.
True, and Amazon Italy have not on list items that are illegal in Italy, but you can also buy from other Amazon stores, I placed a couple of order on Amazon France, for example.
The point is that if I try to buy from Amazon US, the US branch of Amazon don’t sell me items they know they cannot sell in Italy (or cannot be sent for whatever reason).
Because the seller know better than sell an illegal product, a seller know what can sell and where.
But be sure that if for some reason I order a book from Amazon US and somehow a gun is sent, obviously for some error, Italian authorities would ask both me and Amazon US what’s going on. Then ok, both us and Amazon can demostrate it is an error and then nothing came out of this (if not that Amazon US maybe does not get the gun back).
I don’t want to argue, I just want to know. You feel it’s always been like that. And you feel that way because that’s been your experience with Amazon. Would you agree to that summary?
What is your intuition about the technological background? When someone sets up a website, what do they have to do or not do, so that it is visible in the UK, Italy, … ?
No, I had the same experience with every site that sell something. I cannot buy online a gun from San Marino from Italy. But I agree that not everyone respect that, for example from Aliexpress I bet I could buy something illegal in Italy (a laser over a given power for example) and face no consequences, but that because it is not really easy to persecute someone in China.
Technically speaking, you should restrict contents that is not legal in a country. I fully understand that it is way more difficult than not selling something, in the end if you sell something you have an address while with a website you simply have an IP address that could not be the real one (think VPN).
So yes, in this specific case 4chan is the asshole of the situation: it they want that their site to be visible from UK they should respect the UK laws, even if, as I said, the law is beyond stupid.
Normally, criminal laws apply only within a country’s territory, with a limited list of exceptions. Attempting to prosecute citizens of another country for something they legally did in their home country is a breach of international norms. It’s not just that it is hard to prosecute, it really gets you into trouble with the other country.
I checked Italy’s penal code and it does not seem an exception, despite the imperial origins. (BTW. It is a serious embarrassment. Is it so hard to remove just the overt fascism?)
Actually, I do remember the Italian state attempting to enforce some ill-considered IP laws against German company Ravensburger a few years ago. That wasn’t a criminal case but the state did want money. Of course, that went nowhere outside of Italy.
A pre-internet equivalent to running a website could be running a telephone hotline, or a mail-order bookstore. Maybe the bookstore sells banned books or media. The hotline may talk about forbidden subjects. Perhaps another equivalent could be a TV or radio station that intentionally broadcasts across borders, like Radio Free Europe.
I don’t think anyone ever considered trying to fine someone in another country over this.
That’s why I said that it would be tried, not that it would be successfull.
But again, the distinction is if it was intentional or not. In case of a error in the process it obviously do not even start, maybe someone would be asked some question, like “how the fuck you confuse a gun with a book ?”.
If it was intentional is another story. There is procedure, Italy should emit an international arrest warrant, then if the criminal it captured by Interpol or something similar a procedure for extradition start and the extradition could be denied obviously. And it would not get you into trouble with other countries, there are treaties else it would be too easy to commit crimes.
Like what ?
I remember it, and it was stupid from the start. But as you said it was not a crimial case, it was just a what you would call a civil case. But yes, we have some very stupid laws and some even more stupid people who think that these stupid laws are valid also in other countries.
Still the same point. A company that legally sells know what to not sell and where, or where to offer service or not, so it would basically not even offer the banned thing to you.
For example, up until some years ago we cannot sell various types of sausages to the US so companies basically avoid to even offer them. But if someone, somehow would be able to sell them, the items would be seized and the buyer and seller punished with a fine.
They considered it, sometime tried to do it, but normally measures were taken.