https://mander.xyz/post/42872387

I received insults

Someone even posted photos of dead bodies

These comments weren’t reviewed, but I was permanently blocked because my political stance is to hope for the reunification of my country. They said I have nothing to offer, just spreading propaganda and negativity.

  • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
    0·
    3 days ago

    No, I do not. There’s no difference here. The question remains unanswered: What’s the difference? Would it be justiified for France to notice that Wallonia hasn’t held a referendum on joining them, invade and then hold their own referendum there?

    Look, obviously I’m not going to humour this deliberately playing dumb. You know what the difference is.

    Why should a referendum take place at all? Should military conquest be legitimised by sham elections? Why should I trust that Russia would hold a free a fair referendum here?

    So, in short, you do not support the right of self determination for the people of Donbas.

    So all proposed referendums are equal, in your mind? The 1938 Anschluss was completely fair, was it?

    Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

    Is it not a reasonable response? Would you not expect a state to reject another country invading and occupying their territory and then trying to legitimise it through a referendum?

    I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

    How is this irrelevant, and nitpicking?

    For the obvious reasons you’re well aware of. If you keep doing this, I’m going to start doing it too, so don’t complain about it when I do.

    Seems to me that given hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians, most of them likely pro-Ukraine had fled Kherson, the Zap Oblast and portions of the Donbass - that any election there would be illegitimate on those grounds. But what about the timescale? Were people openly permitted in those regions to publicly campaign in favour of remaining in Ukraine? Were there any debates

    I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

    Ironically though, that means all of your arguments now apply to Ukraine. Hmm, yes, were people permitted to publicly campaign for leaving Ukraine? Oh wait, never mind; Ukraine just declared the whole referendum illegal. Oops

    My logic is that a region should decide if it wants to join another country or not, or become independent, and not a neighbourly country.

    No. That was not your logic. Once again, you can’t even remember your own position.

    There’s an immediate and obvious conflict of interest when an larger neighbour invades and occupies a portion of another country and then immediately holds a hastily designed referendum.

    What about the immediate and obvious conflict of interest from the country that controls the region refusing to recognize their desire to leave?

    Also, I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

    Are you implying that every single referendum, no matter how it emerges - the result is automatically above board and should always be respected?

    Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

    • Skavau@lemmy.world
      2·
      3 days ago

      Look, obviously I’m not going to humour this deliberately playing dumb. You know what the difference is.

      No, I do not. I will not stop. The question remains unanswered: What’s the difference? Would it be justiified for France to notice that Wallonia hasn’t held a referendum on joining them, invade and then hold their own referendum there?

      So, in short, you do not support the right of self determination for the people of Donbas.

      I reject that Russia is credibly representing the self-determination of the people of the Donbas, Zap Oblast or Kherson by holding sham elections in territory they don’t even entirely control. What about those who fled those areas?

      Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

      So you unironicaly believe that someone must believe that any referendum ever, regardless of context, regardless of voting methods, regardless of conduct should be accepted or all rejected?

      That I must believe that the Quebec referendums in Canada are on the same credibilty level of the Austrian Anschluss?

      I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

      You mean the referendum held in an area 1/4 the overall size of the Donbass? Where most people from the Donbass couldn’t vote? That referendum?

      For the obvious reasons you’re well aware of. If you keep doing this, I’m going to start doing it too, so don’t complain about it when I do.

      So no ability to answer. As usual.

      I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

      You do realise that (1) that referendum only took place in a small pocket of the Donbas.

      Nor that does that, even if somehow representative, account for the citizens of the Zap or Kherson oblasts.

      Ironically though, that means all of your arguments now apply to Ukraine. Hmm, yes, were people permitted to publicly campaign for leaving Ukraine? Oh wait, never mind; Ukraine just declared the whole referendum illegal. Oops

      Why would Ukraine acknowledge and legitimise a referendum held by occupying powers who forcibly took land from them?

      No. That was not your logic. Once again, you can’t even remember your own position.

      Yes, it was.

      What about the immediate and obvious conflict of interest from the country that controls the region refusing to recognize their desire to leave?

      Absolutely. But do you have any credible evidence that a majority of people from the Donbass wanted to leave? Or in Kherson or in the Zap oblast?

      Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

      So you do, what, reject or accept all referendums do you?

      You still haven’t given me a single reason to accept the Russian referendums held in 2022 in occupied Donbass/Kherson/Zap as fairly conducted.

      • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
        11·
        3 days ago

        No, I do not. I will not stop. The question remains unanswered: What’s the difference? Would it be justiified for France to notice that Wallonia hasn’t held a referendum on joining them, invade and then hold their own referendum there?

        Look, obviously I’m not going to humour this deliberately playing dumb. You know what the difference is.

        I reject that Russia is credibly representing the self-determination of the people of the Donbas, Zap Oblast or Kherson by holding sham elections in territory they don’t even entirely control. What about those who fled those areas?

        I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

        So you unironicaly believe that someone must believe that any referendum ever, regardless of context, regardless of voting methods, regardless of conduct should be accepted or all rejected?

        Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

        You mean the referendum held in an area 1/4 the overall size of the Donbass? Where most people from the Donbass couldn’t vote? That referendum?

        The one you had to be repeatedly told happened before the Russian invasion.

        So no ability to answer. As usual.

        Ok, I’ll start doing it to. What do you mean? I clearly gave you an answer. As I have mostly. What do you think “giving an answer” means? And what do you think “usual” means?

        You do realise that (1) that referendum only took place in a small pocket of the Donbas.

        You didn’t even know what year it took place in before this conversation

        Nor that does that, even if somehow representative, account for the citizens of the Zap or Kherson oblasts.

        You also clearly don’t realize that they aren’t part of Donbas.

        Yes, it was.

        Nope. Anyone can go back and read what you said.

        Why would Ukraine acknowledge and legitimise a referendum held by occupying powers who forcibly took land from them?

        I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

        Absolutely. But do you have any credible evidence that a majority of people from the Donbass wanted to leave?

        So no, you don’t recognize the conflict of interest.

        So you do, what, reject or accept all referendums do you?

        Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

        You still haven’t given me a single reason to accept the Russian referendums held in 2022 in occupied Donbass/Kherson/Zap as fairly conducted.

        I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

        • Skavau@lemmy.world
          2·
          3 days ago

          Look, obviously I’m not going to humour this deliberately playing dumb. You know what the difference is.

          I will not stop. The question remains unanswered: What’s the difference? Would it be justiified for France to notice that Wallonia hasn’t held a referendum on joining them, invade and then hold their own referendum there?

          I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

          And I’ve repeatedly replied that the post-2014 referendums held by the Luhansk’s People’s Republic and Donetsk Republic don’t represent everyone in the Donbass. Is that the referendum you are referring to here?

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums

          Are you referring to these?

          Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

          That’s not my perspective.

          The one you had to be repeatedly told happened before the Russian invasion.

          No, I knew that happened. I just didn’t think you genuinely thought a referendum that took place in a pocket of the Donbass area was somehow binding on the entire population of the Donbass. Apparently I was wrong.

          Ok, I’ll start doing it to. What do you mean? I clearly gave you an answer. As I have mostly. What do you think “giving an answer” means? And what do you think “usual” means?

          No, you’ve hardly provided any answers.

          You didn’t even know what year it took place in before this conversation

          As I said: No, I knew that happened. I just didn’t think you genuinely thought a referendum that took place in a pocket of the Donbass area was somehow binding on the entire population of the Donbass. Apparently I was wrong.

          You also clearly don’t realize that they aren’t part of Donbas.

          No. I’ve pointed out that Russia also held sham referendums in the Kherson and the Zap oblasts. That even if the Donbass referendums prior to 2022 in the 2014-22 republics were somehow meaningful - that wouldn’t somehow bind Kherson and the Zap oblasts. Russia also claims them too. What does the Donbass have to do with them? All you do when I bring them up is say that they’re irrelevant, for some reason.

          Nope. Anyone can go back and read what you said.

          No, it was not. That was not ever my position.

          I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

          As I said: I’m well aware of the referendums that the breakaway states conducted. I don’t see how they’re especially authoritative for the reasons I’ve already provided.

          So no, you don’t recognize the conflict of interest.

          Not what I asked you: Do you have any credible evidence that a majority of people from the Donbass wanted to leave?

          Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

          That’s not what I asked you. You seem to have a binary view on all referendums. So do you reject or accept them all?

          You can’t do both.

          I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

          As I said: I’m well aware of the referendums that the breakaway states conducted. I don’t see how they’re especially authoritative for the reasons I’ve already provided.