Both are correct. I don’t see the Fediverse ever becoming as large as the billionaire platform for the precise reason that it isn’t run by billionaires with gigantic advertising budgets. As such, the Fediverse will not have the large numbers of users and hence, will be quieter.
That being said, the Fediverse IS an alternative to the billionaire platforms - especially for people who desire smaller, more intimate communities and - perhaps most importantly - controlled and governed by the people who use it.
Preach. I’m happy to only hang out with the sort of people who see the value in social media by the people and for the people. Sometimes it’s messy, some of us are kinda annoying, but it’s always going to be better than corpo shit.
One of the reasons that billionaire controlled tech platforms become so mainstream IS their ability to grow and spread, and eventually become de facto means of communication online.
This allows them to break out of the early adopter, technical space and spread to a wider audience
The Fediverse is decentralized, which means that it cannot (or at least it would be very, very difficult) be shut down by anyone. On an individual level, any user is free to start their own instance or community with their own rules in place should another instance or community become undesirable. If there is something you don’t like or that is somehow stifling to you, start your own and make it the way you want it.
I can start an instance right now. But that doesn’t mean it will have any kind of importance. If I can create new spaces, and let’s say it grows, wouldn’t the problems from the first instance just carry over.
So I’m wondering how this is a solution to safe guard against tech billionaires?
I’ve long surmised that the future of lemmy / activitypub is a fragmented one. Federation only works if everyone instances are participating in good faith. There are instances that are generally not federated with because they do not participate in good faith.
If at any point you feel that “billionaires” are encroaching on your experience, there will always be a next refuge.
Because it isn’t a singular space. An instance that goes bad can be tethered from the rest of the wider network, and abandoned, leaving it on its own.
I can start an instance right now. But that doesn’t mean it will have any kind of importance. If I can create new spaces, and let’s say it grows, wouldn’t the problems from the first instance just carry over.
I don’t know what you mean by “problems with the first instance”.
Ok please humor me then here. Can you walk me through a situation where an instance would untether itself. One day lemmy becomes super popular. People notice it as a platform to get information on. Millions of views an hour. Peter Thiel is paying chinese click farms to post manosphere content in popular lemmy communities. Musk is linking “no kings 5.0” lemmy posts to his followers on X who are brigading the comments. The moderators of the most popular lemmy.world communities are Marvel executives and Billionare Pedophiles.
So now we abandon it and leave. What does that mean as far as protecting that instance from that same thing happening?
We’ve cut the hyrda’s head clean off. Now what? Do users all move to the new instance? Is all the bad from the first instance just going to contain itself to that instance? What protection is in place?
There has been instances already where instances have disappeared, been defereated, and or just failed to keep up with the new changes in the protocols we all call home.
People have migrated pretty quick to other instances, other communities, etc…etc…
For example I was on lemmy.world for a good year or so before piefed. And they are both excellent platforms! Jumping instances is actually really easy and you dont lose much.
Jumping instances, making your own, etc…etc… are things you cant really do outside the fediverse. You cant just spin up a twitter clone an expect it to interop with twitter outside giving massive $$ to API costs (and thats if THEY allow it). Here I have spun up my own lemmy/piefed/mastodon/gotosocial/peertube instances and communicated with people on the respective platforms.
In a nutshell we have more control to do what we want. If I dont like what piefed and rimu/others are doing, I can fork and make a mesa-piefed with flapjacks and other things. And it will work with lemmy.world day 1.
reddit was radically different in 2007 than it is in 2017, vs 2027. so is the entire internet at large. the majority of internet traffic is now mobile devices and it will probably even be a starker majority by 2037.
Ok please humor me then here. Can you walk me through a situation where an instance would untether itself. One day lemmy becomes super popular. People notice it as a platform to get information on. Millions of views an hour. Peter Thiel is paying chinese click farms to post manosphere content in popular lemmy communities. Musk is linking “no kings 5.0” lemmy posts to his followers on X who are brigading the comments. The moderators of the most popular lemmy.world communities are Marvel executives and Billionare Pedophiles.
I think this is so ridiculous as to essentially constitute fantasy. Lemmy.world, the largest Lemmy instance has about 40% of the active userbase (and declining slowly as a share of overall users) out of a pool of about 40k users. I don’t think that’s sufficient if Lemmy.world tried to cut itself off from every other network, they’d shed a lot of users who have people and communities they interact with outside of the main instance.
If Lemmy became popular, it across the instances would become popular. Not just one instance.
If for some reason a single instance did become hyperpopular and obnoxious to interact on, the lemmy software would still be accessible to rebuild another ecosphere elsewhere.
So now we abandon it and leave. What does that mean as far as protecting that instance from that same thing happening?
I’m not sure you know what an “instance” is. Can you tell me what you think an instance is?
they’d shed a lot of users who have people and communities they interact with outside of the main instance.
I don’t think they would…
There’s a weird idea that people need one fediverse account that federated with everyone they want…
If someone like .world, but likes an instance that doesn’t federate…
The absolute worst thing is they have multiple interfaces to flip thru. And especially since so many people use an app that lets them flip in an instance.
Maybe I’m just old, but I remember having like 20 different forum memberships and having to visit completely different websites.
It wasn’t a huge deal.
Defederation isn’t a deathblow, and having a couple distinct circles makes sense.
paying chinese click farms to post manosphere content
I block people, I block instances, I block communities. Problem solved. It looks like you’re stirring shit like an annoying russian agent that would love to stir shit.
You know what I’ll do after reading all the comments in this thread? I’ll block you because you’re annoying, and then the problem will be solved.
I think you should take a more constructivist approach - what we have now, rather than what we might have in the future. Currently we have a network of like 20 major servers, mostly federated with each other. If one of those servers becomes insanely popular and overrun with bots and garbage, the rest will simply defederate from it. From the perspective of users on those other servers, they’ve only lost 5% of the network they liked. From the perspective of users who were on the popular server before it went to shit, they now have to move servers but still have 95% of the old network as they remember it.
Do users all move to the new instance?
What incentive is there for them to move? By the very nature of hype explosions, they are exponential, and as such most users will have joined when it was already quite popular. They won’t remember the “good old days” of their server being federated, so for them it’s fine to be isolated on a garbage server, at least initially. I suspect if something like this were to happen, most other servers will also limit signups for some time, to keep the spirit of the network alive and growing organically.
Including billionaires or heritage foundation or Thiel. Also what would you do with this node? Significance matters right now. Numbers and engagement matters. The left have lost significance and engagement year over year. You can stand up a node but how does this safe guard our spaces from being over run?
A lot of people really don’t understand federation…
And I think it’s because instances federate by default no matter what.
Like, there’s one instance that is a single person who believes they have multiple personalities. They have open signups but then ban anyone that signs up as “impersonating admins”.
.world federated with them, and even let them in the “admin only” matrix chat and let that person pretend to be a real admin who has real problems with actual users.
I legitimately don’t know if they’re aware, it’s just they federate with literally anyone by default, and that’s why they keep running into issues later.
But they exist still. My assumption here is it wasn’t always a shit hole. That the shit hole occurs when a few poor features of digital spaces are exploited. Vote manipulations. Moderation capture. Linking posts and communities by accounts like Libs of TT who brigade. And once you de-federate, what stops them from jumping to any other instances you enjoy?
Keep mind that Trump’s truth social is a Mastodon instance. But no one federates with it (by design; they never turned federation on on purpose). That doesn’t mean that other mastodon instances are made worse because it’s there.
You’re saying that because assholes have their own space, that we can’t?
Your point makes no sense. Do you understand federation and defederation? It’s not a tool of censorship. It’s literally the solution to the problem you’re complaining about.
I really don’t think you understand how this works.
If I start an instance, it is impossible for you to censor me, on my instance. Even if you were a billionaire. I cannot censor you on other federated sites, but I can defederate from a site which is run by billionaire assholes. They can have their space, and I can have mine and there doesn’t need to be any cross pollution.
It is impossible to censor anyone within their own instance. But you can block instances.
This is not a single site. It is dozens, or hundreds, or thousands, or millions, and so on. In theory, every person on the planet could have their own instance and no one could censor them.
Everyone can create an instance (Well, at least anyone who can pay for a domainname and hosting, which is the basic requirement for every webservice)
As default, instances federate with each other
Instances that are bad neighbors get defederated
That’s it, basically. Even if someone bought up all instances and domainnames (which would require that server admins sell them, which i can’t see many doing, or else they wouldn’t run a fediverse service in the first place), there’s nothing stopping you from creating a new instance outside of the control of this person the same day. It literally cannot be simply taken over by, say, Microsoft.
Right, and I’m thinking this is not actually a solid way to protect fediverse from what is happening everywhere else.
We can all create instances, but there needs to be engagement for it to matter. I’m not looking at this from the point of view of “what can I do to enjoy my time on the internet while my rights are taken away and I’m told my sister should go to jail for wanting an abortion”
There is a pattern that occurs with seizing digital spaces. It starts small. They begin dog whistling in small communities. Not enough to get banned. Just enough to get reactions. Based off the reaction they target a few of the weaker ones. Whistles get louder. They link those to their influencers who post to their base. That base begin to show up and the community begins to fracture. Mods get overwhelmed. Ask for help to increase mod team. Some of the new mod team are the very people poisoning the community or are affiliated. The new moderators make it worse. Users begin to block or leave the communities. More dog whistles. More growth from the right until the community is captured. They move on to target another bigger community and are now using the first community as a pool to feed into the bigger one and turn it. So you can de-federate but nothing really stops the attacks. There is no real mechanism right now to guard against what has happened as far as I see it.
If lemmy were to grow as big as other sites, it will be just as likely to swing hard right unless something else is done.
If you’re wanting a planned in advance ideal solution, that’s not really possible, but people can collectively respond to problems as they happen and adapt, as long as they aren’t constrained from doing so.
I believe the pattern and tactics you describe are always going to be more effective on a platform controlled by a company like Reddit, because any efforts to counter them are ultimately limited by the agenda of the platform owners. There are people on Reddit trying to investigate and call out deceptive commercial spam, but when the spammers block them to prevent a response, set their post history to be unreadable, buy moderator positions, and admins only care about their own power and profitability (cutting users off from api etc), the deck is stacked against them. In the end it’s just not their website.
Ultimately this is an organizational challenge, not only a technical or platform design challenge. If the organization is a collection of users who generally want genuine non-manipulative interaction between real people, and the protocol is set up to make it easy for them to route around malicious attempts to usurp control, that doesn’t mean immediate victory over adversaries but it is a big leg up.
The “swing to the hard right” comes as soon as more normies arrive. There are basically two ways this goes:
a) badly behaved normies get the boot. comes with the side effect of keeping the cost for instance admins low and the work for mod teams small, but also means that we stay a niche. I have no issues with this.
b) normies come here and do as they always do. this is your scenario. Since normies - since they are normies - will simply swarm to single instances, as we saw at the API exodus, the rest of the fediverse will sooner or later defederate from those single instances if they aren’t able to keep their normie horde in check. This is fine, actually. If i really want to look at something only the normies are talking about, i can simply fire up my normie-instance account and see all i want.
Since we have a simple mechanism of keeping badly behaved instances in check, i cannot see how your scenario actually comes to fruit.
Both a) and b) only works for so long. We’re not talking just about users. We’re talking about coordinated efforts by group’s backed by financial support to slowly take over. I’ve seen them go so far as getting themselves onto mod teams. They have it down to a science mean if we’re not making them rewrite their books constantly then lemmy is just going to go the way of all other platforms.
What is there to protect the Fediverse from control?
Why do you think people want it to have no control?
4chan exists, people would go there if they want a lawless wasteland. Or that weird 4chan ripoff that gets spammed every couple months here. Plebbit? They change the name constantly
And there’s fringe instances where they claim to want that lawlessness, but look at their modlogs and they stamp out anyone who disagrees with them. So you can try an “anarchist” instance if hypocrisy is ok with you…
But your question is coming from a very unpopular perspective.
The vast amount of people want someone in control because otherwise it’s just a bunch of trolls who don’t have a choice if they use the big platforms, because they’re IP banned from there.
Fediverse will always have a way for the dregs to get in, so having someone with “control” is necessary. Otherwise normal people leave…
I think some time in the future we’re all going to wake up to the realization that the mods were the problem and a big part of why the right wing are growing while the left are dying out.
In the past couple decades the left has fumbled so hard they have completely destroyed themselves and their ideals with almost no sign of recovery for the next few decades.
we’re all going to wake up to the realization that the mods were the problem
No…
Because you can make an instance right now and be the admin with full control, and have it be the lawless wasteland you claim everyone wants.
You would fail just like all the others before you, because even if someone thinks they want that, they quickly realize they dont when they go somewhere like that.
In the past couple decades the left has fumbled so hard they have completely destroyed themselves and their ideals with almost no sign of recovery for the next few decades.
This is bog standard low empathy thinking from the right.
You assume you’re a “silent majority” and everyone thinks like you, because you lack the ability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes
For fucks sake, voat is what you say people want, look into how even reddit maga enjoyed that once they finally found a place “free of moderation”.
Spoiler:
When they realized they couldn’t ban dissent and it wasn’t a safe place, they left.
You would fail just like all the others before you
Which is my point a little bit. But you assume it fails because people don’t want it. Leftist need to change to want it if they want to survive.
For fucks sake you’re all suppose to be leftist and you can’t even re-create a co-operative based approach to your digital space. But you’re all going to say “we need to universalize X, Y or Z” but when it comes to your cat post we need a hierarchical system where ultimate control is given to a select few faceless individuals??
There is no future for the left if you rely on moderation. Moderation will inevitably become the tool of tech billionaires to control our digital spaces. Being able to stand up new instances is not a defense to protect these spaces against that. The left needs spaces to disseminate information. Spread ideas and build momentum. The only logical conclusion becomes that the minute it is popular enough to be useful then it will also be popular enough to for the right to target. If lemmy does not develop ways to guard against control by a select few faceless individuals then it will go the way of reddit if not worse. Without spaces to grow, then the right will continue their trend of capture people of all ages to their ideas and principals.
One centralized location where everyone is, and no one is allowed to do any moderation.
That will never happen, because no one wants to hang out with a bunch of Nazis and bigots, and that is going to be the one group who will abso fucking lutely show up in droves to a social media website with zero moderation and a leftist lean.
If you legitimately still don’t understand any of this, you’re gonna have to ask someone else for more help.
The decentralization is there, but in theory the owner of the largest node could defederate from everyone else, forcing users to leave the largest instance or put up with it? I genuinely don’t know which direction users would go, lemmy users are an odd bunch.
lemmy users who are ideological tend to just align with the ideology of their instance, and are happy to defederate from instances that don’t align with their political beliefs.
and i don’t really blame them. a lot of instances are tiny, but very active, and extremely toxic in their userbase. the majority of hate speech and hostility I get on the fediverse comes overwhelmingly from a small group of instances, which I eventually just blocked.
and it makes sense if an admin has their instance’s communities brigaded by one of these other instances, they should probably just block it entirely for the health of their instance’s users.
nothing. it’s at the mercy of the instance admins or those who host the instances.
if at some point they get bought up, or decide to collude, you won’t have any options.
they are also subject to the national laws in which their servers reside.
people forget, reddit started as a server in someone’s basement too in 2005. it was a start up, then it got purchased by conde nast in 2006, who started advertising it. i found reddit in 2007 as part of Wired’s website feed.
reddit was niche until the mid 2010s, it became a top 10 website in 2017-2018, and now is 7th most popular site on the internet, just behind twitter/x.
Exactly. This was my thought. I remember early reddit. It was amazing and we all said the same shit
Being able to upvote and downvote posts meant anything could be posted and the community moderated. Then it all shifted. Voting no longer mattered other than to be smug and say you don’t agree. I look at lemmy and it seems like it took the moderator first approach. It took the worst parts of reddit.
Both are correct. I don’t see the Fediverse ever becoming as large as the billionaire platform for the precise reason that it isn’t run by billionaires with gigantic advertising budgets. As such, the Fediverse will not have the large numbers of users and hence, will be quieter.
That being said, the Fediverse IS an alternative to the billionaire platforms - especially for people who desire smaller, more intimate communities and - perhaps most importantly - controlled and governed by the people who use it.
as long as there are enough people and content here, why should we even care if everyone isnt here? I dont even want every idiot here.
Preach. I’m happy to only hang out with the sort of people who see the value in social media by the people and for the people. Sometimes it’s messy, some of us are kinda annoying, but it’s always going to be better than corpo shit.
This.
One of the reasons that billionaire controlled tech platforms become so mainstream IS their ability to grow and spread, and eventually become de facto means of communication online.
This allows them to break out of the early adopter, technical space and spread to a wider audience
I think we need to be okay with less users because the billionaire platforms use bots, anyways.
Let me rephrase then. What is there to protect the Fediverse from control?
it’s a step in the right direction but still a small step and it took a lot of effort
The Fediverse is decentralized, which means that it cannot (or at least it would be very, very difficult) be shut down by anyone. On an individual level, any user is free to start their own instance or community with their own rules in place should another instance or community become undesirable. If there is something you don’t like or that is somehow stifling to you, start your own and make it the way you want it.
How is that going to protect the space?
I can start an instance right now. But that doesn’t mean it will have any kind of importance. If I can create new spaces, and let’s say it grows, wouldn’t the problems from the first instance just carry over.
So I’m wondering how this is a solution to safe guard against tech billionaires?
Truth Social is Mastodon, its just not federated, either is Gab for that matter (thank fuck).
Bluesky needs a bridge and alas assholes keep making then
An instance doesn’t need to federate with others.
I’ve long surmised that the future of lemmy / activitypub is a fragmented one. Federation only works if everyone instances are participating in good faith. There are instances that are generally not federated with because they do not participate in good faith.
If at any point you feel that “billionaires” are encroaching on your experience, there will always be a next refuge.
Because it isn’t a singular space. An instance that goes bad can be tethered from the rest of the wider network, and abandoned, leaving it on its own.
I don’t know what you mean by “problems with the first instance”.
Ok please humor me then here. Can you walk me through a situation where an instance would untether itself. One day lemmy becomes super popular. People notice it as a platform to get information on. Millions of views an hour. Peter Thiel is paying chinese click farms to post manosphere content in popular lemmy communities. Musk is linking “no kings 5.0” lemmy posts to his followers on X who are brigading the comments. The moderators of the most popular lemmy.world communities are Marvel executives and Billionare Pedophiles.
So now we abandon it and leave. What does that mean as far as protecting that instance from that same thing happening?
We’ve cut the hyrda’s head clean off. Now what? Do users all move to the new instance? Is all the bad from the first instance just going to contain itself to that instance? What protection is in place?
There has been instances already where instances have disappeared, been defereated, and or just failed to keep up with the new changes in the protocols we all call home.
People have migrated pretty quick to other instances, other communities, etc…etc…
For example I was on lemmy.world for a good year or so before piefed. And they are both excellent platforms! Jumping instances is actually really easy and you dont lose much.
Jumping instances, making your own, etc…etc… are things you cant really do outside the fediverse. You cant just spin up a twitter clone an expect it to interop with twitter outside giving massive $$ to API costs (and thats if THEY allow it). Here I have spun up my own lemmy/piefed/mastodon/gotosocial/peertube instances and communicated with people on the respective platforms.
In a nutshell we have more control to do what we want. If I dont like what piefed and rimu/others are doing, I can fork and make a mesa-piefed with flapjacks and other things. And it will work with lemmy.world day 1.
We have the power. Thats what makes us different.
for now.
in 5 to 10 years? who knows.
reddit was radically different in 2007 than it is in 2017, vs 2027. so is the entire internet at large. the majority of internet traffic is now mobile devices and it will probably even be a starker majority by 2037.
I think this is so ridiculous as to essentially constitute fantasy. Lemmy.world, the largest Lemmy instance has about 40% of the active userbase (and declining slowly as a share of overall users) out of a pool of about 40k users. I don’t think that’s sufficient if Lemmy.world tried to cut itself off from every other network, they’d shed a lot of users who have people and communities they interact with outside of the main instance.
If Lemmy became popular, it across the instances would become popular. Not just one instance.
If for some reason a single instance did become hyperpopular and obnoxious to interact on, the lemmy software would still be accessible to rebuild another ecosphere elsewhere.
I’m not sure you know what an “instance” is. Can you tell me what you think an instance is?
I don’t think they would…
There’s a weird idea that people need one fediverse account that federated with everyone they want…
If someone like .world, but likes an instance that doesn’t federate…
The absolute worst thing is they have multiple interfaces to flip thru. And especially since so many people use an app that lets them flip in an instance.
Maybe I’m just old, but I remember having like 20 different forum memberships and having to visit completely different websites.
It wasn’t a huge deal.
Defederation isn’t a deathblow, and having a couple distinct circles makes sense.
I block people, I block instances, I block communities. Problem solved. It looks like you’re stirring shit like an annoying russian agent that would love to stir shit.
You know what I’ll do after reading all the comments in this thread? I’ll block you because you’re annoying, and then the problem will be solved.
I think you should take a more constructivist approach - what we have now, rather than what we might have in the future. Currently we have a network of like 20 major servers, mostly federated with each other. If one of those servers becomes insanely popular and overrun with bots and garbage, the rest will simply defederate from it. From the perspective of users on those other servers, they’ve only lost 5% of the network they liked. From the perspective of users who were on the popular server before it went to shit, they now have to move servers but still have 95% of the old network as they remember it.
What incentive is there for them to move? By the very nature of hype explosions, they are exponential, and as such most users will have joined when it was already quite popular. They won’t remember the “good old days” of their server being federated, so for them it’s fine to be isolated on a garbage server, at least initially. I suspect if something like this were to happen, most other servers will also limit signups for some time, to keep the spirit of the network alive and growing organically.
User unfriendlyness.
Visually, Fediverse isn’t like reddit, instagram, or any other popular social media places.
You need to put in some effort to even browse it.
That anyone can run a node. I could put one in my basement.
Including billionaires or heritage foundation or Thiel. Also what would you do with this node? Significance matters right now. Numbers and engagement matters. The left have lost significance and engagement year over year. You can stand up a node but how does this safe guard our spaces from being over run?
I can defederate from those instances. Problem solved. So can you.
A lot of people really don’t understand federation…
And I think it’s because instances federate by default no matter what.
Like, there’s one instance that is a single person who believes they have multiple personalities. They have open signups but then ban anyone that signs up as “impersonating admins”.
.world federated with them, and even let them in the “admin only” matrix chat and let that person pretend to be a real admin who has real problems with actual users.
I legitimately don’t know if they’re aware, it’s just they federate with literally anyone by default, and that’s why they keep running into issues later.
But they exist still. My assumption here is it wasn’t always a shit hole. That the shit hole occurs when a few poor features of digital spaces are exploited. Vote manipulations. Moderation capture. Linking posts and communities by accounts like Libs of TT who brigade. And once you de-federate, what stops them from jumping to any other instances you enjoy?
Keep mind that Trump’s truth social is a Mastodon instance. But no one federates with it (by design; they never turned federation on on purpose). That doesn’t mean that other mastodon instances are made worse because it’s there.
So safe spaces for me, but not for thee?
You’re saying that because assholes have their own space, that we can’t?
Your point makes no sense. Do you understand federation and defederation? It’s not a tool of censorship. It’s literally the solution to the problem you’re complaining about.
Not sure what you mean here. I’m saying it is potentially not censorship proof and that we should be aware of that.
I really don’t think you understand how this works.
If I start an instance, it is impossible for you to censor me, on my instance. Even if you were a billionaire. I cannot censor you on other federated sites, but I can defederate from a site which is run by billionaire assholes. They can have their space, and I can have mine and there doesn’t need to be any cross pollution.
It is impossible to censor anyone within their own instance. But you can block instances.
This is not a single site. It is dozens, or hundreds, or thousands, or millions, and so on. In theory, every person on the planet could have their own instance and no one could censor them.
What does one do with numbers and engagement on the Fediverse?
Share ideas. Build community. Raise awareness. You build hype.
With enough numbers and engagement you can resist the spread of the right and push back.
That’s it, basically. Even if someone bought up all instances and domainnames (which would require that server admins sell them, which i can’t see many doing, or else they wouldn’t run a fediverse service in the first place), there’s nothing stopping you from creating a new instance outside of the control of this person the same day. It literally cannot be simply taken over by, say, Microsoft.
Right, and I’m thinking this is not actually a solid way to protect fediverse from what is happening everywhere else.
We can all create instances, but there needs to be engagement for it to matter. I’m not looking at this from the point of view of “what can I do to enjoy my time on the internet while my rights are taken away and I’m told my sister should go to jail for wanting an abortion”
There is a pattern that occurs with seizing digital spaces. It starts small. They begin dog whistling in small communities. Not enough to get banned. Just enough to get reactions. Based off the reaction they target a few of the weaker ones. Whistles get louder. They link those to their influencers who post to their base. That base begin to show up and the community begins to fracture. Mods get overwhelmed. Ask for help to increase mod team. Some of the new mod team are the very people poisoning the community or are affiliated. The new moderators make it worse. Users begin to block or leave the communities. More dog whistles. More growth from the right until the community is captured. They move on to target another bigger community and are now using the first community as a pool to feed into the bigger one and turn it. So you can de-federate but nothing really stops the attacks. There is no real mechanism right now to guard against what has happened as far as I see it.
If lemmy were to grow as big as other sites, it will be just as likely to swing hard right unless something else is done.
If you’re wanting a planned in advance ideal solution, that’s not really possible, but people can collectively respond to problems as they happen and adapt, as long as they aren’t constrained from doing so.
I believe the pattern and tactics you describe are always going to be more effective on a platform controlled by a company like Reddit, because any efforts to counter them are ultimately limited by the agenda of the platform owners. There are people on Reddit trying to investigate and call out deceptive commercial spam, but when the spammers block them to prevent a response, set their post history to be unreadable, buy moderator positions, and admins only care about their own power and profitability (cutting users off from api etc), the deck is stacked against them. In the end it’s just not their website.
Ultimately this is an organizational challenge, not only a technical or platform design challenge. If the organization is a collection of users who generally want genuine non-manipulative interaction between real people, and the protocol is set up to make it easy for them to route around malicious attempts to usurp control, that doesn’t mean immediate victory over adversaries but it is a big leg up.
The “swing to the hard right” comes as soon as more normies arrive. There are basically two ways this goes:
a) badly behaved normies get the boot. comes with the side effect of keeping the cost for instance admins low and the work for mod teams small, but also means that we stay a niche. I have no issues with this.
b) normies come here and do as they always do. this is your scenario. Since normies - since they are normies - will simply swarm to single instances, as we saw at the API exodus, the rest of the fediverse will sooner or later defederate from those single instances if they aren’t able to keep their normie horde in check. This is fine, actually. If i really want to look at something only the normies are talking about, i can simply fire up my normie-instance account and see all i want.
Since we have a simple mechanism of keeping badly behaved instances in check, i cannot see how your scenario actually comes to fruit.
Both a) and b) only works for so long. We’re not talking just about users. We’re talking about coordinated efforts by group’s backed by financial support to slowly take over. I’ve seen them go so far as getting themselves onto mod teams. They have it down to a science mean if we’re not making them rewrite their books constantly then lemmy is just going to go the way of all other platforms.
Why do you think people want it to have no control?
4chan exists, people would go there if they want a lawless wasteland. Or that weird 4chan ripoff that gets spammed every couple months here. Plebbit? They change the name constantly
And there’s fringe instances where they claim to want that lawlessness, but look at their modlogs and they stamp out anyone who disagrees with them. So you can try an “anarchist” instance if hypocrisy is ok with you…
But your question is coming from a very unpopular perspective.
The vast amount of people want someone in control because otherwise it’s just a bunch of trolls who don’t have a choice if they use the big platforms, because they’re IP banned from there.
Fediverse will always have a way for the dregs to get in, so having someone with “control” is necessary. Otherwise normal people leave…
I think some time in the future we’re all going to wake up to the realization that the mods were the problem and a big part of why the right wing are growing while the left are dying out.
In the past couple decades the left has fumbled so hard they have completely destroyed themselves and their ideals with almost no sign of recovery for the next few decades.
No…
Because you can make an instance right now and be the admin with full control, and have it be the lawless wasteland you claim everyone wants.
You would fail just like all the others before you, because even if someone thinks they want that, they quickly realize they dont when they go somewhere like that.
This is bog standard low empathy thinking from the right.
You assume you’re a “silent majority” and everyone thinks like you, because you lack the ability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes
For fucks sake, voat is what you say people want, look into how even reddit maga enjoyed that once they finally found a place “free of moderation”.
Spoiler:
When they realized they couldn’t ban dissent and it wasn’t a safe place, they left.
Which is my point a little bit. But you assume it fails because people don’t want it. Leftist need to change to want it if they want to survive.
For fucks sake you’re all suppose to be leftist and you can’t even re-create a co-operative based approach to your digital space. But you’re all going to say “we need to universalize X, Y or Z” but when it comes to your cat post we need a hierarchical system where ultimate control is given to a select few faceless individuals??
There is no future for the left if you rely on moderation. Moderation will inevitably become the tool of tech billionaires to control our digital spaces. Being able to stand up new instances is not a defense to protect these spaces against that. The left needs spaces to disseminate information. Spread ideas and build momentum. The only logical conclusion becomes that the minute it is popular enough to be useful then it will also be popular enough to for the right to target. If lemmy does not develop ways to guard against control by a select few faceless individuals then it will go the way of reddit if not worse. Without spaces to grow, then the right will continue their trend of capture people of all ages to their ideas and principals.
And those exist…
You want a space
One centralized location where everyone is, and no one is allowed to do any moderation.
That will never happen, because no one wants to hang out with a bunch of Nazis and bigots, and that is going to be the one group who will abso fucking lutely show up in droves to a social media website with zero moderation and a leftist lean.
If you legitimately still don’t understand any of this, you’re gonna have to ask someone else for more help.
What spaces are those?
The decentralization is there, but in theory the owner of the largest node could defederate from everyone else, forcing users to leave the largest instance or put up with it? I genuinely don’t know which direction users would go, lemmy users are an odd bunch.
lemmy users who are ideological tend to just align with the ideology of their instance, and are happy to defederate from instances that don’t align with their political beliefs.
and i don’t really blame them. a lot of instances are tiny, but very active, and extremely toxic in their userbase. the majority of hate speech and hostility I get on the fediverse comes overwhelmingly from a small group of instances, which I eventually just blocked.
and it makes sense if an admin has their instance’s communities brigaded by one of these other instances, they should probably just block it entirely for the health of their instance’s users.
nothing. it’s at the mercy of the instance admins or those who host the instances.
if at some point they get bought up, or decide to collude, you won’t have any options.
they are also subject to the national laws in which their servers reside.
people forget, reddit started as a server in someone’s basement too in 2005. it was a start up, then it got purchased by conde nast in 2006, who started advertising it. i found reddit in 2007 as part of Wired’s website feed.
reddit was niche until the mid 2010s, it became a top 10 website in 2017-2018, and now is 7th most popular site on the internet, just behind twitter/x.
Exactly. This was my thought. I remember early reddit. It was amazing and we all said the same shit Being able to upvote and downvote posts meant anything could be posted and the community moderated. Then it all shifted. Voting no longer mattered other than to be smug and say you don’t agree. I look at lemmy and it seems like it took the moderator first approach. It took the worst parts of reddit.
If you don’t understand the distinction between voting and federation, perhaps toy need to do some more reading?
Nothing I said implied this. We’re all having a discussion here. I don’t think this type of lazy statement helps anything.