Why are bike tires so narrow and large diameter compared to car tires? What tradeoffs are here exactly? Motorcycle and some ebike tires are more similar to car tires than to bike tires, so i guess it has something to do with braking length at maximum expected speed, and probably also with weight of vehicle, as to not exceed some specified pressure on road. There has to be so many more reasons (weight? air resistance? some other things affecting efficiency or safety? ???)

update: apparently friction involving things that are bendy is monstrously complicated subject, and also there are material limits like maximum allowed shear stress

  • Dookieman12@piefed.social
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    5 hours ago

    I used to work for a major tire manufacturer.

    Changing the diameter of the wheel effectively changes the gear ratio of the drive train. This applies to cars and bikes.

    A larger diameter wheel gives more leverage, effectively “gearing down” the vehicle. A smaller diameter wheel gives more RPMs over the same distance, effectively “gearing up” the vehicle.

    Bicycles have larger wheels to make them easier to pedal. If you’ve ever ridden a folding compact bike, you may have noticed the smaller tires make them harder to pedal or have larger gears to compensate.

    Car tires have a smaller diameter to reduce material cost. Truck and SUV tires tend to be a little bigger to pad the final torque figure. Tractor tires are huge to maximize torque. Big offroad tires are mostly to give more ground clearance, the extra torque is just a bonus. The reason offroad tires aren’t as big as tractor tires is because they still need to fit under a wheel well and because there are height restrictions on street legal vehicles and people occasionally drive a few miles on public roads in their 4x4.

    Tread width improves cornering and acceleration performance, to a point, by giving a larger contact patch, which gives more friction, but reduces fuel efficiency and eventually reduces performance. Economy car tires aim for a good balance between braking performance and fuel efficiency. Sports cars aim for a tread width commensurate with the desired performance capabilities; wide enough to put power to the road and stay stable through the corners, but not any wider, so as to keep weight to a minimum.

    Bike and motorcycle tires have a curved bottom to give traction while leaning, so this is factored into tread width also.

    Tires are part (sometimes the only part) of the suspension of any vehicle. The air in the tire gives cushion. More air means more cushion. Higher tread wall means more room for air. The height of the tread wall is determined by giving enough to soften the ride, but not too much because tires are heavy and additional mass means lower fuel efficiency and reduced performance. Tires are considered “unsprung weight” because they’re not supported by the springs of the suspension. When calculating performance, one pound of unsprung weight is equivalent to approximately three pounds of sprung weight, so optimization is important in that area.

    Weight capacity, wear rate, and shear strength are determined mostly by the profile design, material composition, and manufacturing process. Diameter and width aren’t (usually) adjusted to suit those parameters.

  • litchralee@sh.itjust.works
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    12 hours ago

    The TL;DR is that at one point in history, automobile wheels did in-fact use the same construction as bicycles. But the needs of automobiles diverged somewhere in the first half of the 20th Century. And since tires are mounted onto wheels, we need to discuss those first.

    I’ve written prior comments here about bicycle wheel/tire fitment and wooden carriage wheel design.

    Basically, early horseless carriages used the same wooden wheels that horse-drawn carriages had used for centuries, which have a squared off profile that contacts the ground, sometimes with a steel band – a tyre – to both hold the wheel together and reduce wear on the wheel itself. The only requirements for carriage wheels were to: 1) roll, and 2) bear weight. And using thick wooden spokes, a wagon wheel could achieve those objectives just fine but were really heavy.

    When the bicycle was invented in the 1820s, the first iterations used slender variants of wagon wheels, but since 100% of the moving power came from the human rider, this is still unnecessary dead weight to haul around. So bicycle wheels evolved to use very thin spokes, which by the late 19th Century were made of steel in tension, rather than the compressive loads through wood that wagon wheels used. Although steel is heavier than wood, a thin steel spoke has more tensile strength than the same weight of wood has in compression. So overall, it’s a weight savings. Specifically, we say that a bicycle wheel must: 1) roll, 2) bear some weight, and 3) allow for leaning.

    The last requirement is crucial for bicycles: they cannot use squared-off carriage wheels, or else leaning the bike will start riding on the edge of the wheel/tire. The solution is simple: round off the contact point so that leaning doesn’t change the profile.

    As it turns out, by the 1910s or so, automobiles also realized that wooden wheels were too heavy, and so they also adopted the steel spoked wheel. But they kept the squared off rubber tire, precisely because an automobile does not (normally!) lean during a curve, and instead should be firmly planted on all four wheels. So at this point in history, both automobiles and bicycles are using spoked wheels but just have different shapes for their rubber tires. Great!

    But this wouldn’t last: the spoked wheel – which already is a phenomenal structure, essentially being a suspension bridge wrapping upon itself – has one small quirk which bicycles tolerated but automobiles do not. When a spoked wheel is subjected to a straight downward force, the structure distributes the force essentially evenly. But if the force is sideways from the left (ie pushing leftward at the axle), the spokes on the right are heavily stretched but the spokes on the left aren’t. This is uneven loading, that then reverberates from side to side.

    This is no issue for bicycles, because they usually lean and so the sideways force is often zero. Sure, a BMX rider can intentionally ride the bike askew, but it’s workable. For an automobile, sideways forces are a regular occurrence, such as during a sharp turn. But also during motorsports where the car is sliding. Spoked wheels can disintegrate when subjected to enough sideways force, which is why cars switched to wheels using sheets of steel rather than spokes. This added weight but was necessary.

    Also around this time, cars got very heavy – some would say “land yachts” – and this required making the tire wider to deal with the weight. Since the tire and wheel are the same width in cars, this means wider rims as well. Bicycles have no such issue, because most bicycle tires are “balloon shaped”, and so already are wider than the rim, sometimes almost comically. From a purely materials perspective, making the rim match the tire width does not add strength but does add weight, so cars have to accept that penalty but bikes do not.

    In the end, the closest that bicycles and automobiles got was in the early 1900s, and have diverged ever since. Fatbike bicycles and now ebikes pushed the width of tires to some 4+ inches (100+ mm) while touring cars are luxury vehicles meant for long distance, high speed cruising on the Autobahn, and so need wide, high aspect ratio tires.

    As for wheel diameter, that’s much simpler to answer: as Jeremy Clarkson noted in the Vietnam Top Gear Special, smaller wheels fall into potholes easier. Bigger wheels roll over them. Automobiles for paved roads use modest diameters, capable of slowly rolling over a 4-6 inch curb to access a driveway. The same diameter on a bicycle would be the 27-inch (aka 700c) or 29-inch class used for road cycling or mountain biking. Whereas smaller folding bikes used exclusively for last-mile commuting can tolerate smaller wheels, because the benefit doesn’t outweigh the diameter penalty when folding it down. All the meanwhile, a motor scooter (eg Vespa) also has small diameter wheels, because they don’t go as fast and urban streets are paved.

    For overlanding or bouldering, 4x4 automobiles have some enormous tire diameters and even then, they sometimes have to intentionally reduce the air pressure, so the tire can conform to rock surfaces and thus get more traction. But such tires are wholly inappropriate on a roadway at freeway speeds.

  • Triumph@fedia.io
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    15 hours ago

    I can speak to motorcycle tires.

    Moto tires are rounded, not flat like car tires. They’re designed to provide an optimal contact patch no matter the lean angle. Often, Moto tires won’t be perfectly rounded, but come to a bit of a point in the middle. This makes for a smaller contact patch going straight, for better fuel economy, and a bigger one while turning for more traction. Finally, moto tires are often made of multiple kinds of rubber: harder in the center for lower rolling resistance, and longer tread life; softer on the sides for more traction while turning.

    I’d bet that small bicycle tires share some of these characteristics, being rounded for sure, possibly others.

  • grue@lemmy.world
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    16 hours ago

    The pressure the tire exerts on the road is always equal to the pressure it’s inflated to. When the vehicle weight increases while tire PSI stays the same, the contact patch (area squished flat against the pavement) increases in size.

    Bike tires are narrower than car tires because bikes are much lighter (so the contact patch doesn’t need to be as wide), and also because they lean into turns (so the contact patch can’t be wide). Bike tires are often larger diameter than car tires because they have more gyroscopic effect and thus make the bike easier to balance. They also make it easier to ride over bumps, but on a road bike (as opposed to a mountain bike) that’s probably a relatively minor reason.

    I think motorcycle and ebike tires are a little wider (but still round in cross-section, so not like a car tire) for durability reasons because all the forces they’re subjected to are larger.

    • NeatNit@discuss.tchncs.de
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      15 hours ago

      When the vehicle weight increases while tire PSI stays the same, the contact patch (area squished flat against the pavement) increases in size.

      If the vehicle gets heavier, doesn’t the tire pressure increase?

      • Elting@piefed.social
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        15 hours ago

        Yeah I think in that case they had meant to say that the amount of air in the tire stays the same and the PSI increases when the tire deforms. They are right that the PSI in the tire has to match the pressure on the road, that can only happen if the PSI increases when you increase the load.

      • marcos@lemmy.world
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        13 hours ago

        No. It often decreases.

        Tire pressure is the one main variable that determines pavement wear. It is highly regulated for heavy vehicles. Those have to compensate by using wider tires or more wheels.

    • litchralee@sh.itjust.works
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      12 hours ago

      The pressure the tire exerts on the road is always equal to the pressure it’s inflated to.

      This is merely a convenient approximation for properly-inflated tires carrying a load, not a hard rule rooted borne out during empirical examination. After all, removing a wheel from an automobile and rolling it along clean concrete leaves tire tracks that are full width, yet the tire will not substantially deform at the contact point because 20-30 pounds is not much of a burden. If there’s no deformation, then the contact patch is a line with a tiny area, which would wrongly suggest a ludicrously high tire pressure.

      because they have more gyroscopic effect and thus make the bike easier to balance.

      While bike wheels do act as gyroscopes – as do all rotating masses without a contra-rotating mass – this is not substantial to bicycle stability. If it were, kick scooters or e-scooters which have substantially smaller wheels but with the same physics as bicycles would be unrideable.

      The bicycle has existed for about 200 years, and for most of that time, how it remains stable was an open question in physics until roughly the late 20th Century, when researchers built enough intentionally-bad bicycles to prove what was minimum and sufficient to have a functioning bicycle. This empirically ruled out trail, caster, and gyroscopes as necessary factors. But the most prominent factor that remained necessarily is centrifugal balancing, aka leaning/banking. Turns out, bicycles lean into curves just like airplanes so.

      • grue@lemmy.world
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        10 hours ago

        This is merely a convenient approximation for properly-inflated tires carrying a load, not a hard rule rooted borne out during empirical examination. After all, removing a wheel from an automobile and rolling it along clean concrete leaves tire tracks that are full width, yet the tire will not substantially deform at the contact point because 20-30 pounds is not much of a burden. If there’s no deformation, then the contact patch is a line with a tiny area, which would wrongly suggest a ludicrously high tire pressure.

        Sure, the tire itself has a certain amount of strength, but (unless it’s a run-flat tire, I suppose) it’s negligible compared to the load carrying provided by the tire pressure.

        While bike wheels do act as gyroscopes – as do all rotating masses without a contra-rotating mass – this is not substantial to bicycle stability. If it were, kick scooters or e-scooters which have substantially smaller wheels but with the same physics as bicycles would be unrideable.

        No, you’re overstating your case. First of all, I didn’t say that gyroscope forces were the only factor. Second, they are a “substantial” contributing factor. Your own wiki link agrees with me:

        Several factors, including geometry, mass distribution, and gyroscopic effect all contribute in varying degrees to this self-stability, but long-standing hypotheses and claims that any single effect, such as gyroscopic or trail (the distance between steering axis and ground contact of the front tire), is solely responsible for the stabilizing force have been discredited.

        The important part is the “gyroscopic effect… contribute” part, not the “solely responsible… discredited” part.

        Remember, OP’s question was “why are the wheels big,” not “why do bicycles stay upright,” so the effect that’s relevant to discuss is the one that’s different between wheels of different diameter. And that’s the gyroscopic effect, not any of the other things that contribute to bicycle stability but don’t depend on wheel size. There’s a reason people generally don’t prefer things like Bromptons unless they really need the packaging advantages, and it’s because bikes with small wheels are (relatively) weird and twitchy to ride.

        • GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca
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          8 hours ago

          Gyroscopic effect for bicycles is neither significant nor necessary. How are bikes with 12" wheels or less going to take advantage of that? There are some functioning bikes on this page whose gyroscopic force would be less than 1% of the mass of the bike and rider. They’re certainly a contributing factor, to varying degrees, but even on bigger bikes they aren’t substantial. Some guys at Cambridge went out of their way to prove that.

        • litchralee@sh.itjust.works
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          10 hours ago

          it’s negligible compared to the load carrying provided by the tire pressure.

          My comment was in reply to the “always equal” assertion, which it definitely is not. No doubt, it’s a handy rule of thumb but nobody should walk away thinking it is a hard rule of tire physics.

          And that’s the gyroscopic effect, not any of the other things that contribute to bicycle stability but don’t depend on wheel size.

          Correlation does not prove causation. You assert that bicycle wheels are big because they have more gyroscopic effects. That is a correlation. I assert in my other comment that small wheels would be swallowed by potholes. That is a causal relationship: the wheel must be bigger to deal with real roads AND is something a smaller wheel cannot handle. It is a fact that a big wheel rolls over protrusions and holes that a small wheel would fall into.

  • Alsjemenou@lemy.nl
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    17 hours ago

    More rubber on the road means more grip. As the weight and corner speeds increase, you need more of it.

    In adverse conditions, wet, mud, you need profile on your tires to channel the water while keeping rubber on the road and maintaining grip. Wider tires make up for the rubber lost in grooves.

    More grip also means more resistance. So there is always a balancing act between the grip you need and the resistance you can put up with.

    • untorquer@quokk.au
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      16 hours ago

      There is no pressure nor area in the friction equation. ‘Fu=u*Fn’

      Fu - friction force

      u - friction coefficient

      Fn - normal force

      Pencil thin tires of the same material have the same grip as extra wide ones in dry conditions. Tread geometry can change for wet but only to prevent hydroplaning, friction is still the same between the tires fire a given condition.

      More contact area means less stress on the rubber which means the rubber wears less for the same load. A car weighs 2 tons, a bike+rider is less than 100kg/200lb. 1/20 the contact area for similar wear. If a car had bike tires they would probably melt after a few km

      • Azzu@leminal.space
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        15 hours ago

        While there is no area in the friction equation, in the real world it is nonetheless a factor. You got to remember that a larger area makes it so small patches of lower friction (sand patch or water or trash or whatever) have less of an impact, with more area you have a higher chance to still be in contact with the asphalt. More area also gives more opportunity for the ridges in tires to displace water or grip onto gravel/dirt. While simple contact friction is the same, total friction is not necessarily depending on the conditions.

        • untorquer@quokk.au
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          13 hours ago

          Responding to:

          More rubber on the road means more grip. As the weight and corner speeds increase, you need more of it.

          However,

          a larger area makes it so small patches of lower friction (sand patch or water or trash or whatever) have less of an impact, with more area you have a higher chance to still be in contact with the asphalt.

          Unless we’re talking about liters of sand/gravel then this fails to explain how motorcycles have as much grip as cars do, as is evidenced by cornering ability.

          More area also gives more opportunity for the ridges in tires to displace water or grip onto gravel/dirt.

          Tread depth and pattern handle these.

          Racing tires are wider because they need to handle higher loads. Racing slicks also maximize contact area to extend tire life and reduce wall thickness. There’s thermal conduction as well. Rubber is an insulator. Rubber friction changes with temperature. So does modulus, leading to more deformation and thus more heating. Too thick rubber makes a hot tire that loses friction coefficient. Too thin and it wears too fast, you’re on steel 3 laps in. so you make it wide enough to distribute the load, reduce stress, and control heating while trading off mass. This is also controlled by chemical composition. After that you’re designing for weather conditions.

          Passenger vehicle tires focus more on climate and adverse road conditions and long life. Because they are much lower performance, they have much lower loads and use tires with less contact area. The same is the case for motorcycles and bicycles.

        • AmidFuror@fedia.io
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          14 hours ago

          This is perhaps an easier to understand explanation:

          https://www.physlink.com/Education/Askexperts/ae140.cfm

          Although a larger area of contact between two surfaces would create a larger source of frictional forces, it also reduces the pressure between the two surfaces for a given force holding them together. Since pressure equals force divided by the area of contact, it works out that the increase in friction generating area is exactly offset by the reduction in pressure; the resulting frictional forces, then, are dependent only on the frictional coefficient of the materials and the FORCE holding them together.

          If you were to increase the force as you increased the area to keep PRESSURE the same, then increasing the area WOULD increase the frictional force between the two surfaces. Answered by: Paul Walorski, B.A. Physics, Part-time Physics Instructor

  • OhNoMoreLemmy@lemmy.ml
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    17 hours ago

    The answer to width is rolling resistance.

    Tires stick to road which is great for accelerating and breaking, but it makes maintaining your top speed harder. This doesn’t matter if you have a big engine, but it makes a difference if you’re cycling.

    For a road bike, you want to minimize the contact area of the tire with the road so you have very narrow tires and inflated a lot so that they don’t deform much under your weight.

    The type and width of tires changes depending on what you’re riding on. For off road you have wide knobbly tires that will catch in mud and push you forward. For riding on a beach you have very wide smooth tires for traveling over sand.

    The diameter is about stability. If you have small wheels turning fast it effectively lowers your center of gravity due to gyroscopic effects (this is a massive over simplification of the physics) big wheels turning more slowly results in a higher center of gravity, which is more stable.

    Cars have four wheels and don’t need to care about this.

    • Successful_Try543@feddit.org
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      15 hours ago

      For a road bike, you want to minimize the contact area of the tire with the road so you have very narrow tires and inflated a lot so that they don’t deform much under your weight.

      It’s slightly different:

      • As the top speed of a road bike makes air resistance (drag) an important factor, road bikes use narrow tyres, resulting in a smaller silhouette area than a wide tyre (on a rim of the same diametre) would have.

      • As the rolling resistance increases with the length of the contact area, with the same internal pressure (inflation), i.e. same area of contact, narrow tyres have a higher rolling resistance than wide tyres. Thus, to (over-)compensate and decrease the length of the area of contact the internal pressure of road bike tyres is much larger than of normal, wider tyres.

      As a result, narrow tyres of road bikes have smaller drag and due to over-compensation by inflation an even lower rolling resistance than standard bike tyres.

      Edit: This over-compensation is possible for road bikes, as hard surfaces (asphalt, concrete, pavement) allow a high surface pressure.

      For tyres of dirt bikes not sinking deeply into soft ground (gravel, soil), they need to have a low ground pressure, i.e. a large area of contact and low inflation and thus, cannot be narrow, but have to be wide.

    • rain_enjoyer@sopuli.xyzOP
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      17 hours ago

      higher center of gravity, which is more stable.

      you sure about it chief? bigger wheels also have larger rotational inertia

      • OhNoMoreLemmy@lemmy.ml
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        17 hours ago

        Yeah, try riding a folding bike with small wheels, you wobble a lot more.

        It’s not about the magnitude of the rotational inertia (which is roughly the same or maybe a bit higher on larger wheels that are probably heavier), it’s about the center of the gyroscopic effect. It’s at a greater height if you have big wheels, and closer to the ground if you have small ones.

        • floquant@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          15 hours ago

          A low center of gravity is more stable than a high one.

          Gyroscopic effects do exist on bikes but they are not the main source of stability - it’s the fork geometry, which tends to straighten the handlebar

        • Successful_Try543@feddit.org
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          8 hours ago

          the magnitude of the rotational inertia […] is roughly the same or maybe a bit higher on larger wheels that are probably heavier

          The rotational moment of inertia increases a lot due to the larger diameter, J ~ m r^2. Even if the masses were the same, the relatively heavy tyre and the rim are further away from the wheel hub.

          Edit: If we neglect the wheel hub and the spokes, the mass of the tyre and rim scales with the radius, m ~ r, and thus J ~ r^3 .

    • Azzu@leminal.space
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      15 hours ago

      Are you joking? Car wheels could theoretically have a diameter of 1 inch/3 cm and a width of 2 meters. Why do they not is the question.

    • rain_enjoyer@sopuli.xyzOP
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      17 hours ago

      The larger the tyre (diameter), the higher the top speed achievable practically

      this only holds when it’s using the same transmission?

      as of width, here i think tradeoff is that with wider tire you can use lower pressure, and if it’s wide enough, also lower diameter. with lower pressure i think there might be less wear (?) but also bigger width means there’s more rubber to flex and that means energy losses by this mechanism. this is why it makes sense to use wider tires where all the power is not supplied by user

      • Successful_Try543@feddit.org
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        15 hours ago

        The larger the tyre (diameter), the higher the top speed achievable practically

        A larger wheel allows a smoother ride as a smaller wheel and thus allows for higher speeds on uneven ground. They also have a lower rolling resistance as their curvature (“roundness”) is smaller and thus, for identical inflation, need to be deformed less to obtain the same area of contact (which on hard surfaces, is defined by the load onto the tyre and its inflation).

        Wider tyres have a lower rolling resistance than narrow tyres when the internal pressure is identical. Thus, wider tyres can be driven with less inflation.

        See also here for more explanation:

        https://www.schwalbe.com/en/technology-faq/rolling-resistance/

      • OhNoMoreLemmy@lemmy.ml
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        17 hours ago

        I think it only holds if it’s a magic engine that always hits the same max RPM regardless of load, and the transmission is the same.

        Otherwise the top land speed record would be held by a monster truck.