There was an Ask Lemmy post about descaler and it reminded me of an experience from my own household adventures.
I use both Iron Out and Barkeepers Friend at home to deal with my foundation drains. Both products have different formulas with different mechanisms and they are not compatible. I’m thankful I am so paranoid or else I might not have realized and potentially created a harmful situation in my basement (a particularly bad place for the heavy gas that forms!).
Iron Out
Liquid forms are called Super Iron Out and Super Iron Out Outdoors.
Both have oxalic acid as the active ingredients although the SDS for Super Iron Out says Oxalic acid and the Iron Out Outdoors says Ethanedioic acid, dihydrate.
Both Oxalic acid and Ethanedioic acid, dihydrate are powders, not solutions. On the surface this probably seems extremely autistic of me and it is, but it’s also really important.
Let’s look at the CAS number given on the SDS. Oxalic Acid is given CAS 144-62-7 Ethanedioic acid, dihydrate is given 6153-56-6. Ethanedioic acid is another name for Oxalic acid and the reason for the different CAS number is the “dihydrate”. This distinction only matters in solid form. If it’s in a solution it’s the same damn thing (except for the fact that it ionizes into two forms and the relative abundance of each depends on pH). Therefore it is needlessly confusing and wrong and I hate that lol. That’s not the point of the post but I needed to get that out.
The solid form of Iron Out is a mixture of different compounds, none of which are any powdered version of Oxalic acid.
It contains Sodium hydrosulfite, Sodium metabisulfite, Sodium sulfite, Sodium Carbonate and Citric acid. It’s super tempting to break these out into what they do but they can perform multiple roles and that will come up later.
Barkeeper’s Friend
Barkeepers Friend also has solid and liquid versions.
The solid version is called Cleaner and Polish or Cookware.
The active ingredients are Oxalic Acid (CAS #144-62-7), a surfactant and an abrasive. The difference in the two formulas are the surfactant and abrasive, but neither of these are involved in why the two formulas are not compatible so I’ll gloss over that.
The liquid versions are called Soft or Multipurpose.
They still use oxalic acid as the main ingredient but again different quantities (or no) abrasives and different surfactants.
What’s your point?
You should not mix Oxalic acid and sulfites. Sulfides can react with acids (even weak ones) and form hydrogen sulfide gas. I have more experience with SO2 than I want and I can give you my professional option that it fucking sucks.
So if you are not careful and assume Iron Out and Barkeepers friend are interchangable you may have a bad time. Or, if you are using them for different purposes (powder iron out to remove iron deposits and oxalic acid to control biofilm growth) you may also have a bad time.
Don’t they do the same thing? Why are they not compatible?
Kinda but not really.
Rust is stupid complicated actually. It’s often simplified as Iron(III) Oxide but that’s absolutely not the whole story even though it sounds super technical. It’s useful because if the three oxidation states of iron this is the one that flakes off most easily.
There are probably multiple reasons but intended use of both products is likely why the formulas are different.
Barkeepers friend is primarily used on metal surfaces which might have corrosion and to remove the resultant rust. The reaction between oxalic acid and rust isn’t one step and it isn’t simple because both the iron oxide and the oxalic acid exist in different states in solution, largely dependent on pH.
I think the easiest way to explain is to contrast with Muriatic acid (HCl). HCl is a strong acid (It’s got an estimated pKa of -5.9) and will brute force the insoluble iron oxide apart and form a soluble Iron chloride. The iron oxide is acting as the base in the acid-base reaction. If the acid then goes on to contact more iron in the metal it will oxidize it so that the formation of oxides will occur more readily. So it can remove rust and encourage new rust. Neat.
Oxalic acid is a weak acid. The two forms have pKa of 1.2 and 4.2. Oxalic acid is not doing an acid-base reaction with the oxides. It reacts with Iron(III) oxides to form a soluble complex. This is called chelation. It’s more complicated than that of course but what is important to remember is that it is reductive not oxidative. It’s not absolutely safe for stainless steel but it’s way less aggressive than Muriatic acid.
Iron Out on the other hand is more focused on removing iron deposits on non metallic surfaces. The combo of sodium hydrosulfite and sodium metabisulfite was patented by Hach as a rust remover from non metallic surfaces. They are stable powders that when made into solution form soluble iron sulfite from iron oxide via reduction.
Citric acid and sodium carbonate also work together. Sodium carbonate raises the pH of the solution so the citrates can still do chelation without the level of attacks on metal metal what would occur at lower pH.
Sodium sulfite is probably there as an oxygen scavenger and corrosion inhibitor so that any oxidized iron that exists does not as easily form an oxide. Again this is likely related to the use of both products as iron out powder isn’t always rinsed off right away like barkeepers friend is.
So while Iron Out also considers risk to metallic surfaces, the cleating agents likely selected knowing use on metal is not the main intent. Cost is probably also a factor.
TL;DR:
Maybe just don’t mix cleaning chemicals ever. Even if they have the same “purpose” or even the same name they might use different, incompatible active ingredients.
As a chemist: the CAS numbers are different, because the compounds are not the same. If a salt contains water inside it or not is very important to know, because it changes the molecular weight and sometimes the reactivity.
If a salt contains a hydrate and you don’t expect it, that would mean you add too little of this active ingredient. Or worse the other way around: maybe you have a reaction where the active ingredient is very aggressive and you can not use more than absolutely necessary. Then a salt without hydrate, but where you thought it would be with the water, could lead to an accident, because you added too much.
As a chemist do you agree that the best way for a child to get rid of bees is to go into the garage and under the kitchen sink and find all of the bottles that say “do not ingest” or “poison” or “kills X” and mix them all together into a spray bottle?
For sure, the child will never have problems with bees again!
You’re one of the good ones. As a fan of chemicals for a variety of reasons, thank you for your service. :D
I think you missed where both products were solutions of oxalic acid.
Hydration number has no meaning in a solution.
ETA: this was not a really a helpful reply because it’s very vague. I’ll try again.
This product, which is a liquid sold in retail stores, lists Ethanedioic acid, dihydrate as the active ingredient on the SDS .
I used to mix bleach and ammonia to clean my shower. It was very effective and very hard to breathe. I was in my late thirties/early forties doing this. DOH !
Hypochlorite bleach should not be legal for consumer use.
The reason is probably a legal issue: they have to name exactly the ingredients as used. And one did use the hydrated form and the other one didn’t. So while it doesnt really matter for the end user, the workers used different versions, need to check different SDS and adhere to them. And then these differences were printed on the label.
Is it pedantic? Sure as hell.
But there are edge cases where things like these can make a difference and where pedantry protects from harm. This… is not such a case ;)
I deleted a much longer text in the reply because I thought it would be a nuisance but now I regret it because it touched on all of this.
The reason is probably a legal issue: they have to name exactly the ingredients as used. And one did use the hydrated form and the other one didn’t.
I wrote SDS for commercial products in the late 2000s and that sure was a rude awakening to the “there are no grownups” realization I think people go through when they realize the people in charge aren’t there for their knowledge and oversight 😅
Anyways, I can tell you that is not the requirement in Canada at least.
So while it doesnt really matter for the end user, the workers used different versions, need to check different SDS and adhere to them. And then these differences were printed on the label.
I don’t understand. Are the workers in this situation the manufacturer? Or the people packaging the product? The SDS is the same for the two products apart from the CAS in terms of hazards. Iron Out Liquid and Iron Out Outdoors . The form used to make the product has no impact on the hazards of the finished product. The exposure limits are the same. The toxicology and eco tox are different but neither of those are for worker safety instructions. They are based on the powdered ingredient data and are not intended to be used directly. Technically mixtures are to be assessed as the mixture and not the separate components but the language is full of holes so no one does it. Item 11 is toxicology…
in the case of a mixture, the information provided under the heading for item 11 of Schedule 1 must be information that is available on the mixture as a whole, and if information is not available on the mixture as a whole, it must be information that is available on the hazardous ingredients in the mixture, together with a clear indication of the chemical name of the hazardous ingredient to which the information pertains; and
There are no CAS # for solutions but in this case I would have gone with oxalic acid and not the hydrate. If someone handed this to me I would assume they had someone incompetent writing their SDS.
But there are edge cases where things like these can make a difference and where pedantry protects from harm.
This… is not such a case ;)
I gave this example in another comment but the reason this is upsetting to me is it strongly suggests they are just mashing the SDS for the ingredients together rather than thinking of the mixture. It means I can’t trust their SDS.
This is an SDS for sodium bisulfite. All of the hazards are from the powder.
Back of napkin, but a 35% solution of SBS at 25C and ph of 3 has a vapour pressure of 0.17 atm of Sulfur Dioxide. So it’s always offhassing. The SDS implies that it may offgas and that it will offgas when mixed with acids but I can tell you after working with it for 15 years it is always offgassing lol. The tank vents have scrubbers and when the scrubber gasket fails the SO2 alarms go off. Tanks need to be rinsed for days and workers need to wear SCBA to safely open the hatch after cleaning and let the room air out for a few hours before they can work on the tanks.
But the SDS is based on the powder, not the solution. It’s not just this one company fucked up. I picked it at random. I’ve never seen one that was useful. I have to fight with project managers all the time because they hire contractors to do work on the system and give them the SDS and then I roll up and ask them where their gas monitors and SCBA is and of course they don’t have it and did not price the work properly because they didn’t know about the hazard. (Our safety procedures are available to the project managers they ought to know better).
Got a 404 on your link so I searched the safety-alert-brake-cleaner–phosgene-gas.html to find an alternative. I think something converted th “–” in the correct link to a “–” in yours making the link fail. Here is a good link to the site.
https://www.brewracingframes.com/safety-alert-brake-cleaner–phosgene-gas.html
As for the content of the link, HOLY SHIT! That is fucking terrifying. I never mix chemicals at home because I know it can get bad, but damn! I had no idea it could get that bad.
Edit: Interesting. The – was again transformed in the displayed link, but since I coded it as a link like this, it still works.
2nd Edit: Apparently all the double dashes in the displayed text are being converted to em-dashes.
I’ll add the em-dash thing to my pile of irritations alongside case insensitive filesystems and the incorrect ways of handling newlines (and time specs, apparently). The em-dash thing is turning out to be a pretty good way to recognize cylons, though.
That article is from at least 2009. It’s always a little shocking to realize how long we’ve been rolling the dice on some of the stuff we do on a daily basis, as a species.
Fuck auto-correct, especially Microsoft’s version of it.
Oh my god, I’ve not heard this one.
One of the reasons I complained about the powders being in the SDS rather than the solution is that I’ve happened upon people standing in a room coughing, with gas detectors going off and they are just confused because they didn’t know they had released SO2 or done anything hazardous so they don’t know what to do. It’s not a risk with solid sodium bisulfite except in a fire but it’s the regular offgas for the product in solution. Guess what the SDS for the 30% solution product we buy was based on 🙃
I used to work in a building that would have a smell in the mornings like every third person farted right as they got in the door. It’s the drains, it’s normal, it’s an old building, at least we’re not working outside, we can’t do anything about it, etc. Then one morning it smelled like people were on their game and everyone farted as they walked in. Haha, it stinks, the building is old, doesn’t this suck, could be worse, etc. Then they chased everyone out of the building because they had leaking batteries spewing H2S (and went on to complain that nobody alerted them to the smell and immediately evacuated).
It’s amazing what the average person can get away with not knowing about chemistry until they really need to, very quickly.
It’s the drains, it’s normal,
This is not your point I am stuck on it lol. It’s not normal for odour to come up the drains 😭
I worked at a sewage treatment plant where people were complaining about the odour in a control room. The trap on a disused sink next door had gone dry (former lab, awaiting repurposing). They had a pipe bringing in air right from the head house to their control room and no one thought to check the traps for weeks. I don’t think they understood where the pipe drained. The head works have way more H2S than a typical lateral and are required to have explosion proof electrical etc. Strictly speaking the sink should have been disconnected once the lab was abandoned, but that rule is in the building code and why would these people know that?.
My point with that was that the building always smelled like farts in the morning. Everyone knew it and it didn’t matter until it did. The people in charge of that facility sat in another building where it didn’t smell like farts, and by and large even if you had the nose to tell the difference between the normal fart smell and an unusual fart smell, nobody interested had the keys to explore the source, because that’s how office buildings work.
I’m agreeing with you! I was trying to reinforce that a building should not smell like farts and it should be investigated. Same with copper pipes turning black.
copper pipes turning black
If it’s not in writing then it never happened so it can’t be our fault. If it never happened then there’s no money to fix it…
I don’t mean to knock facilities people. I’ve known some good ones who you hate to bother with anything because they’ll drop what they’re doing and treat any issue like it’s a five alarm emergency, but when a problem could’ve been noticed by having a guy just amble around and talk football people wonder why things aren’t getting fixed.
“Hey man, the fart smell was because nobody was using the sink. It’s fine (assumption here) to just cut the water on and let it run for a few minutes every couple of weeks.”
Facilities people? What do you think we are, Buckingham palace?
But yeah we made a PM to run the sink lol.
The copper pipes was actually my house. There was a tiny, tiny leak downstream the trap for the bathroom sink. The pipe was never full so there was no water leak. I called a plumber and got it fixed.
I think your closing is where it’s at-unless you know the chemistry, don’t go mixing shit.
It sounds super simple but even I catch myself doing dumb shit with assumptions so I think it bears repeating. After working in hazardous environments with super specific warning labels I come home and see vague shit on household cleaners and think “it can’t be that dangerous if they are so vague and don’t list ingredients?” But that’s super inaccurate and dangerous.
Not that I know chemistry.
But that’s the way it goes, isn’t it? I know enough chemistry to realize I need to think very seriously about any chemistry I think I am doing in the real world and check if I’m working off assumptions and simplifications. Lots of people know a lot less than me and are really smug about much chemistry they know. I didn’t want to derail but as I was double checking some details before posting Gemini gave me very wrong AI search results. Combine smug people with incorrect AI? Let’s just not mix chemicals no matter how much we think we know lol.
Yeah, it’s a general rule of home safety that you should never mix cleaning products. Chlorine gas is nasty.
Good post. Much learn.
