Why? Ireland isn’t in Schengen, and multiple EU countries aren’t using the euro, with no plans to adopt it (Poland, Sweden, Hungary, Czechia).
I’m British and I hope the UK and EU can have closer relations. But if the EU just wants to punish the UK for Brexit then that is going to go down badly with many Brits, so closer relations will become less likely.
But if the EU just wants to punish the UK for Brexit then that is going to go down badly with many Brits, so closer relations will become less likely.
Being treated like every other new country wanting to join isn’t a punishment. The “British exceptionalism” mentality imho causing these thoughts is one root of the problem.
A punishment would be if the EU were to demand reparations for the economic damages the UK inflicted on it. Which, you’ll note, nobody is asking for.
I’m not talking about British exceptionalism in any way. Clearly lots of people in this thread don’t like the UK. Fine. That doesn’t mean you should twist my words though.
Multiple EU countries haven’t adopted the euro and don’t show signs of adopting it. So clearly the EU already practises “flexibility” on the euro, to some degree.
If EU citizens decide they don’t want the UK in the EU, okay. I would like good UK-EU relations, but I can’t control what EU citizens think of the UK.
I’m not talking about British exceptionalism in any way. Clearly lots of people in this thread don’t like the UK. Fine. That doesn’t mean you should twist my words though.
Your words are not being twisted as I’ll lay out below.
Multiple EU countries haven’t adopted the euro and don’t show signs of adopting it. So clearly the EU already practises “flexibility” on the euro, to some degree.
These countries enjoy the things the UK decided to reject when leaving: Special privileges for joining early enough.
New countries joining do not receive any such privileges anymore and neither should the UK. That is being treated fairly. Any position that wants the UK to be treated better than other new countries wanting to join is what I called British Exceptionalism.
If EU citizens decide they don’t want the UK in the EU, okay. I would like good UK-EU relations, but I can’t control what EU citizens think of the UK.
I’m fine with them joining on the same terms as every other new country. If they don’t want to join, there are plenty of ways to cooperate without that. Finally: I generally don’t tend to think of the UK at all (neither negatively or positively), unless it comes up in political topics.
Because objectively, the brits had one of if not the best deal out of any EU country, lots of excemptions, rebates, special cases for them. But that wasnt enough, so they threw a tantrum and left.
It is wildly inappropriate and sends the wrong message to everyone else if UK gets to join at yet again super favourable cherry picked conditions. The EU should take them back as a true and full member only, not as this privileged cherry picked BS again that only stirs resentment from others. Commit fully to the EU like every other member and the trust is restored.
But that wasn’t enough, so they threw a tantrum and left.
I don’t think it was necessarily just greed and racism that caused Brexit. There were a lot of people that weren’t happy with life in the UK, and a huge misinformation campaign cropped up at the wrong time to suggest Brexit would leave people better off and provide more money for the NHS.
I think what didn’t help is when there were celebs who weren’t struggling like everyone else were saying people would be stupid not to vote stay.
The misinformation campaign worked and a lot of those people that voted leave realised how they had been misled.
All of those millions for the NHS that was just a lie and we all only got told it was a lie afterwards.
And we basically had people on the leave side admitting to just making numbers up.
It was a very obvious lie. Your people believed that lie, and your people will believe similar lies again in the future, unless they change.
And just a few comments above, there was yet another Briton saying “the EU just wants to punish the UK for Brexit”, showcasing that no, that people has not changed a bit. They are still swimming very deep in the waters of exceptionalism, seeing being treated as just a normal country instead something better than others as “a punishment”!
No of course not, they just keep letting them get away with it because they are all getting paid by the same people arent they, its all just a game to them im sure
But if the EU just wants to punish the UK for Brexit
It’s not a punishment to get a normal treatment instead of preferential treatment. If we go out of our ways to let you in at any costs, as suggested in the article, we’re making all 26 current EU countries inclined to do the same shit whenever they get similar populists in charge. That will eventually tear the EU apart. Coming and going, and then getting a goddamn prize in the form of preferential treatment for having done that, is not something we should allow. Leaving should really mean leaving for good. Okay, if things change, welcome back, but why should we go with a very bad deal we were forced to accept in the 1970’s when we were much weaker and had no other option? Now we can survive without the UK just fine, so we shouldn’t just bow ourself into a knot in front of them like we did half a century ago. Welcome back, of course, but only with the usual rules that apply to everyone else as well.
And, I must say, I keep seeing British people see being treated normally as a punishment. That’s some heavy level of exceptionalism. I keep seeing that attitude, and it’s not an attitude I want to see in a EU member state. English people who are saying shit like “EU just wants to punish the UK for Brexit” when what is being talked about is just not giving them weird exemptions or other kinds of preferential treatment that puts them over other countries, do a good job shifting my thinking from “you’re welcome to join” towards “rather not.”
I’m not in any way after “preferential treatment”. I pointed out that there are several EU countries already who, as far as I’m aware, have no plans to adopt the euro. It seems Denmark has a permanent opt-out, while Sweden and Poland are deliberately delaying euro adoption forever, until their people support euro adoption in referendums.
If we go out of our ways to let you in at any costs
I don’t believe you should.
Anyway, I think the EU has made sensible comments on relations with the UK recently. So I don’t think the EU currently wants to punish the UK, which is good. But I get the sense from some people (not from the EU itself) that they want to punish the UK. An attitude of “yeah fuck them, Europe-hating backstabbers”. It’s of course true that some Brits don’t like the EU, and they still support Brexit, but it’s also true that there are Brits who want closer relations with the EU, in a way that is agreeable to both sides, rather than one side dominating or punishing the other.
I wasn’t thinking “EU wants to punish UK” means something else than EU as institution. Need to figure out if it’s more common that people actually mean that they’ve seen such atmosphere among people who are or claim to be EU citizens.
(Also, I wonder what share of the more vicious “punish UK!!” people are trolls working at the St. Petersburg troll farm!)
True I used the words “if the EU just wants to punish the UK” but I guess I meant if hypothetically the EU wanted to punish the UK. The post I responded to said: “Fuck no. Full EU or stay out.”, and I suppose if the EU adopted words like that, maybe it seems a bit hostile. I definitely get the point about fairness among EU countries of course. If other EU countries had to sign up to certain terms (Schengen Area, adopting the euro) then yes it makes sense to present the same terms to the UK.
But I guess there has already been flexibility in the EU. They’re not compelling Poland and Sweden to adopt the euro, right? Even if those countries are technically supposed to adopt the euro. Also maybe it’s a matter of opinion whether Denmark’s permanent opt-out from the euro is fair. You could say “it’s fair because those are the terms Denmark agreed to”. Or you could say “it’s not fair because more recent EU joiners weren’t offered those same terms”.
If all EU members and potential members have the same joining terms then yes that seems fair. Anyway, the UK is surely not going to rejoin the EU anytime soon. It could happen one day, and maybe that would involve the UK adopting the euro, but before then I think gradually closer relations are probably likely.
Denmark got an official permission to remain out of Euro, BTW!
Sweden didn’t. Instead, evey so often, for a very short time, they “accidentally” make their currency’s exchange rate fluctuate just a tiny bit more than allowed, meaning the currency is not stable enough and they are forbidden to join the euro :D
“Oh, you were doing so well for 364 days. What a coincidence that just on your last day of your probation this happened to you. Again.”
Yeah I thought it was something like that. So if the EU did offer membership terms to the UK, I wonder whether it would be “you have to join the euro within 5 years”, or whether it would be “you’re supposed to join the euro but you can postpone it forever like Sweden does”. I guess it’s unlikely that Denmark’s opt-out from the euro would be offered to any other country because it hasn’t been offered to recent countries.
I think it would be “you need to join Euro within 5 years”, but there are no sanctions for your currency being too unstable for 0.1 % of the time and you thus being refused admittance to the Eurozone. The admittance must be refused under those circumstances – according to the current rules. They can.of course be changed, but that will then affect everyone, including Poland, UK, Czechia and Sweden (but not Denmark, because it has been relieved of that requirement).
Why? Ireland isn’t in Schengen, and multiple EU countries aren’t using the euro, with no plans to adopt it (Poland, Sweden, Hungary, Czechia).
I’m British and I hope the UK and EU can have closer relations. But if the EU just wants to punish the UK for Brexit then that is going to go down badly with many Brits, so closer relations will become less likely.
Being treated like every other new country wanting to join isn’t a punishment. The “British exceptionalism” mentality imho causing these thoughts is one root of the problem.
A punishment would be if the EU were to demand reparations for the economic damages the UK inflicted on it. Which, you’ll note, nobody is asking for.
The British had their chance. No getting two bites at the apple their way.
I’m not talking about British exceptionalism in any way. Clearly lots of people in this thread don’t like the UK. Fine. That doesn’t mean you should twist my words though.
Multiple EU countries haven’t adopted the euro and don’t show signs of adopting it. So clearly the EU already practises “flexibility” on the euro, to some degree.
If EU citizens decide they don’t want the UK in the EU, okay. I would like good UK-EU relations, but I can’t control what EU citizens think of the UK.
Your words are not being twisted as I’ll lay out below.
These countries enjoy the things the UK decided to reject when leaving: Special privileges for joining early enough.
New countries joining do not receive any such privileges anymore and neither should the UK. That is being treated fairly. Any position that wants the UK to be treated better than other new countries wanting to join is what I called British Exceptionalism.
I’m fine with them joining on the same terms as every other new country. If they don’t want to join, there are plenty of ways to cooperate without that. Finally: I generally don’t tend to think of the UK at all (neither negatively or positively), unless it comes up in political topics.
Because objectively, the brits had one of if not the best deal out of any EU country, lots of excemptions, rebates, special cases for them. But that wasnt enough, so they threw a tantrum and left.
It is wildly inappropriate and sends the wrong message to everyone else if UK gets to join at yet again super favourable cherry picked conditions. The EU should take them back as a true and full member only, not as this privileged cherry picked BS again that only stirs resentment from others. Commit fully to the EU like every other member and the trust is restored.
Not this.
I don’t think it was necessarily just greed and racism that caused Brexit. There were a lot of people that weren’t happy with life in the UK, and a huge misinformation campaign cropped up at the wrong time to suggest Brexit would leave people better off and provide more money for the NHS.
I think what didn’t help is when there were celebs who weren’t struggling like everyone else were saying people would be stupid not to vote stay.
The misinformation campaign worked and a lot of those people that voted leave realised how they had been misled.
They had freedom of movement if they wanted to live anywhere else.
All of those millions for the NHS that was just a lie and we all only got told it was a lie afterwards. And we basically had people on the leave side admitting to just making numbers up.
It was a very obvious lie. Your people believed that lie, and your people will believe similar lies again in the future, unless they change.
And just a few comments above, there was yet another Briton saying “the EU just wants to punish the UK for Brexit”, showcasing that no, that people has not changed a bit. They are still swimming very deep in the waters of exceptionalism, seeing being treated as just a normal country instead something better than others as “a punishment”!
Did you punish those people for lying? Or did the society (and their laws) decide that it was an ok thing to do?
No of course not, they just keep letting them get away with it because they are all getting paid by the same people arent they, its all just a game to them im sure
It’s more like keeping their word. The UK was warned that rejoining would not include the same exceptions as before.
It’s not a punishment to get a normal treatment instead of preferential treatment. If we go out of our ways to let you in at any costs, as suggested in the article, we’re making all 26 current EU countries inclined to do the same shit whenever they get similar populists in charge. That will eventually tear the EU apart. Coming and going, and then getting a goddamn prize in the form of preferential treatment for having done that, is not something we should allow. Leaving should really mean leaving for good. Okay, if things change, welcome back, but why should we go with a very bad deal we were forced to accept in the 1970’s when we were much weaker and had no other option? Now we can survive without the UK just fine, so we shouldn’t just bow ourself into a knot in front of them like we did half a century ago. Welcome back, of course, but only with the usual rules that apply to everyone else as well.
And, I must say, I keep seeing British people see being treated normally as a punishment. That’s some heavy level of exceptionalism. I keep seeing that attitude, and it’s not an attitude I want to see in a EU member state. English people who are saying shit like “EU just wants to punish the UK for Brexit” when what is being talked about is just not giving them weird exemptions or other kinds of preferential treatment that puts them over other countries, do a good job shifting my thinking from “you’re welcome to join” towards “rather not.”
I’m not in any way after “preferential treatment”. I pointed out that there are several EU countries already who, as far as I’m aware, have no plans to adopt the euro. It seems Denmark has a permanent opt-out, while Sweden and Poland are deliberately delaying euro adoption forever, until their people support euro adoption in referendums.
I don’t believe you should.
Anyway, I think the EU has made sensible comments on relations with the UK recently. So I don’t think the EU currently wants to punish the UK, which is good. But I get the sense from some people (not from the EU itself) that they want to punish the UK. An attitude of “yeah fuck them, Europe-hating backstabbers”. It’s of course true that some Brits don’t like the EU, and they still support Brexit, but it’s also true that there are Brits who want closer relations with the EU, in a way that is agreeable to both sides, rather than one side dominating or punishing the other.
Good, thanks for the reply! 💛
I wasn’t thinking “EU wants to punish UK” means something else than EU as institution. Need to figure out if it’s more common that people actually mean that they’ve seen such atmosphere among people who are or claim to be EU citizens.
(Also, I wonder what share of the more vicious “punish UK!!” people are trolls working at the St. Petersburg troll farm!)
True I used the words “if the EU just wants to punish the UK” but I guess I meant if hypothetically the EU wanted to punish the UK. The post I responded to said: “Fuck no. Full EU or stay out.”, and I suppose if the EU adopted words like that, maybe it seems a bit hostile. I definitely get the point about fairness among EU countries of course. If other EU countries had to sign up to certain terms (Schengen Area, adopting the euro) then yes it makes sense to present the same terms to the UK.
But I guess there has already been flexibility in the EU. They’re not compelling Poland and Sweden to adopt the euro, right? Even if those countries are technically supposed to adopt the euro. Also maybe it’s a matter of opinion whether Denmark’s permanent opt-out from the euro is fair. You could say “it’s fair because those are the terms Denmark agreed to”. Or you could say “it’s not fair because more recent EU joiners weren’t offered those same terms”.
If all EU members and potential members have the same joining terms then yes that seems fair. Anyway, the UK is surely not going to rejoin the EU anytime soon. It could happen one day, and maybe that would involve the UK adopting the euro, but before then I think gradually closer relations are probably likely.
Denmark got an official permission to remain out of Euro, BTW!
Sweden didn’t. Instead, evey so often, for a very short time, they “accidentally” make their currency’s exchange rate fluctuate just a tiny bit more than allowed, meaning the currency is not stable enough and they are forbidden to join the euro :D
“Oh, you were doing so well for 364 days. What a coincidence that just on your last day of your probation this happened to you. Again.”
It’s something of a mad game they are playing :D
Yeah I thought it was something like that. So if the EU did offer membership terms to the UK, I wonder whether it would be “you have to join the euro within 5 years”, or whether it would be “you’re supposed to join the euro but you can postpone it forever like Sweden does”. I guess it’s unlikely that Denmark’s opt-out from the euro would be offered to any other country because it hasn’t been offered to recent countries.
I think it would be “you need to join Euro within 5 years”, but there are no sanctions for your currency being too unstable for 0.1 % of the time and you thus being refused admittance to the Eurozone. The admittance must be refused under those circumstances – according to the current rules. They can.of course be changed, but that will then affect everyone, including Poland, UK, Czechia and Sweden (but not Denmark, because it has been relieved of that requirement).
Ireland only isn’t in Schengen to accommodate the UK not being in Schengen, by the way.
New members don’t get any opt outs. And if you think full membership is a punishment, just stay on your island and leave us alone.
And UK is not Ireland, Poland or Sweden.
And Poland, Ireland or Sweden didn’t waste shitload of time and resource of EU by staging idiotic exit.