It’s interesting to me that Debian has this image of long time between releases. Mint for example is based on Ubuntu LTS which releases every 2 years, but I haven’t seen the same jokes about Mint.
Debian does minor releases every so often, too. For example the current version of Trixie is on its 7th point release (12.7). Trixie was released last August.
Not only with intervals but also with quite old software. Sometimes software versions are so old that they are no longer compatible with the upstream version. Although, to be honest, I haven’t used Debian for so long that I can’t even name the applications that lagged behind like that.
In general, Debian is indeed incredibly stable, but if you need to install it on the latest laptop (for example, Intel Core Ultra X9), it will be a real hell.
UPD: except perhaps for using sid. But then you lose the only advantage - stability.
Honestly, in the age of Flatpak and containerization (as well as Debian often being well-supported by upstream projects for script or package-based install), I feel like the age of Debian packages isn’t that annoying anymore; anything important gets security patches, and it’s easier than ever to use 3rd party software without breaking your system. I will add that Debian seems to be much better these days at making sure either a reasonably up-to-date version ships with a release (and can be kept secure during a stable cycle) or not shipping it at all as to allow the user to install it themselves.
I remember back in just 2021 when it took months after Firefox ESR 78 went EOL for them to update Bullseye to 91; recently, it only took them a few days after 140’s EOL to switch to 153 (and 91-115 and 115-140 happened without much note either), which isn’t perfect, but much better than it was.
If you need to install it on a new laptop, backports often has you covered. I ran a backports kernel for about a year on Debian Bookworm to get my laptop’s Wi-Fi modem working; I was able to quit using the backports kernel once Trixie came out.
If you are using only Docker, you don’t need a Linux distribution at all. Just install alpine slim, busybox, or any Kubernetes worker node build.
Flatpak, much like snap, appimage, and other programs trying to shove old, hole-ridden libraries down my throat under the pretext that “the build is too complex,” is not the kind of software I would welcome on my PC. I’d rather build the application by hand.
Alpine is still a Linux distro, just a lighter one. Also, busybox is a set of standard utilities as an alternative to coreutils; I have no idea how it’s particularly relevant here.
The thing is, I’m not using only Docker. I also use native nginx as a reverse proxy, for which I like Debian’s defaults, as well as SyncThing, which are both well-maintained packages in Debian. Also I kind of prefer glibc distros. While glibc kind of sucks, so much stuff I like using prefers or requires it; for instance, last I saw, mDNS/Avahi resolution on BusyBox was kind of a pain in the rear.
Most of what I use Flatpak for isn’t network-facing or opening unverified files anyway; the most important applications I do run the native Debian version. Honestly, truth be told, you are correct that I do often prefer native versions and will run the native Debian package if possible (and considering the current age of stable, a lot of them really aren’t that old; Inkscape is basically still the latest version, for instance, while Firefox is always kept to the latest ESR); at some point, though, I do find a Debian package that is too behind to do what I do (though rare, TBH), and despite some issues with Flatpak, at the end of the day, I need to just get a piece of software installed and get on with my day. In that case, I just do a Benjamin Sisko:
Honestly, in the age of Flatpak and containerization (as well as Debian often being well-supported by upstream projects for script or package-based install), I feel like the age of Debian packages isn’t that annoying anymore; anything important gets security patches, and it’s easier than ever to use 3rd party software without breaking your system.
i was pleasantly surprised in 2023 to learn that debian was still king in the server space and precisely because of this – i remember doubting trying debian on my personal hardware because of the age of the packages back around 2004.
I’ve found I don’t need bleeding edge most of the time. But if I do need something more up to date, there’s usually a package for Debian available. Wine is one example; I needed a more updated version than Debian stable ships, and WineHQ has it packaged for that. Installs easily and stays updated automatically.
Speak for yourself. I hate going back to old local Pis or servers I haven’t updated in years and realize that I’m 2+ releases behind and the one I’m on is already end-of-life.
Also Debian user remembering the last official release:
It’s interesting to me that Debian has this image of long time between releases. Mint for example is based on Ubuntu LTS which releases every 2 years, but I haven’t seen the same jokes about Mint.
Because Mint does release minor releases every 6 months
Debian does minor releases every so often, too. For example the current version of Trixie is on its 7th point release (12.7). Trixie was released last August.
True, though I guess they don’t change the OS (only the repos), and don’t advertise/celebrate it as much…
But complaining or anything, just thinking “out loud” why people could feel this way about Debian but not Mint
Not only with intervals but also with quite old software. Sometimes software versions are so old that they are no longer compatible with the upstream version. Although, to be honest, I haven’t used Debian for so long that I can’t even name the applications that lagged behind like that.
In general, Debian is indeed incredibly stable, but if you need to install it on the latest laptop (for example, Intel Core Ultra X9), it will be a real hell.
UPD: except perhaps for using sid. But then you lose the only advantage - stability.
Honestly, in the age of Flatpak and containerization (as well as Debian often being well-supported by upstream projects for script or package-based install), I feel like the age of Debian packages isn’t that annoying anymore; anything important gets security patches, and it’s easier than ever to use 3rd party software without breaking your system. I will add that Debian seems to be much better these days at making sure either a reasonably up-to-date version ships with a release (and can be kept secure during a stable cycle) or not shipping it at all as to allow the user to install it themselves.
I remember back in just 2021 when it took months after Firefox ESR 78 went EOL for them to update Bullseye to 91; recently, it only took them a few days after 140’s EOL to switch to 153 (and 91-115 and 115-140 happened without much note either), which isn’t perfect, but much better than it was.
If you need to install it on a new laptop, backports often has you covered. I ran a backports kernel for about a year on Debian Bookworm to get my laptop’s Wi-Fi modem working; I was able to quit using the backports kernel once Trixie came out.
If you are using only Docker, you don’t need a Linux distribution at all. Just install alpine slim, busybox, or any Kubernetes worker node build.
Flatpak, much like snap, appimage, and other programs trying to shove old, hole-ridden libraries down my throat under the pretext that “the build is too complex,” is not the kind of software I would welcome on my PC. I’d rather build the application by hand.
i was pleasantly surprised in 2023 to learn that debian was still king in the server space and precisely because of this – i remember doubting trying debian on my personal hardware because of the age of the packages back around 2004.
I’ve found I don’t need bleeding edge most of the time. But if I do need something more up to date, there’s usually a package for Debian available. Wine is one example; I needed a more updated version than Debian stable ships, and WineHQ has it packaged for that. Installs easily and stays updated automatically.
Speak for yourself. I hate going back to old local Pis or servers I haven’t updated in years and realize that I’m 2+ releases behind and the one I’m on is already end-of-life.