Usually its the people who actually ARE liberals calling you a liberal.
Liberal is shorthand for economically liberal aka free market capitalists, any other definition is wrong, fuck liberals
Words can have more than one meaning. Liberalism means one thing politically and another philosophically. Arguing it means only one thing is misleading and wrong.
But yes American liberals are not helpful at best
The classical definition is actually free markets with protection from harm, which is very different
The definition I’d go with is: “Anyone who is in favor of both free market capitalism and individual rights.”
Which, yeah, would be kind of neat if you could have both. But the former tends to erode the latter quite badly over time.
That’s called a classical liberal fyi
They still believe in the concept of a free market and capitalism being good. What we’ve seen with attempts to regulate is either the companies ignore it because the fines are less than what it’d cost to follow the law, skirt around it in some way, or just buy up people to then strike it.
Then you’re not regulating it properly are you?.. there are tons of regulations in play that do work.
Companies still dump untreated waste water right into water ways even with regulation. I just see it an endless chase of the capitalists one step ahead at all times at least, often more because it takes time to draft regulation. Capitalism has only brought “prosperity” to a few from the continued exploitation of others. It still believes growth infinite in a closed system.
I think punishments of anything to that degree of bad should be immediate bankruptcy with a ban on holding any C suite position for the rest of your life or face that ban in prison. We’re not harsh enough on them, and so they feel like its not a problem even if they get caught.
It will always be a fight of capital in politics that the c-suite would push to prevent this.
No matter what, if you can buy and sell ownership as a shareholder, then you have a fundamental misalignment from the direct stakeholders of a firm. This is why I find unions and regulations to be band-aids.
A capitalist system is fundamentally misaligned and it will always work to undo those regulations with capital accumulation and regulatory capture. The only way to fix that is to require direct stakeholder ownership whether that be worker-consumer coöps, syndicates, public ownership, or what have you. The ownership and decision-making must needs be aligned with the people benefitting or who are otherwise impacted by the operations of a firm. That is Socialism and that is not the regulation bandaids that Liberalism trys to paste over Capitalism’s flaws and cracks.
You’ve seen attempts to regulate that are generally company-sponsored and ineffective in preventing the harms the regulations are intended to prevent. Or you’ve seen out and out corruption which buys democracy and breaks it. Liberalism, as I understand it (as a European) allows state ownership and a free market, in different goods and dependent upon conditions in that market, to prioritise people over capital
Yeah, Liberalism doesn’t align companies with their direct stakeholders at all and so any attempt to regulate will be under tension like trying to push two magnets together.
If the market involve buying and selling shares, then that is still capitalism, just with social safety nets.
Great! Welcome to now
Talking to an older, conservative acquaintance and he says to me “I’m glad you’re not a liberal like everyone else your age”
Me, stifling a smirk, “I am certainly not a liberal”
Certainly not a liberal…
What the actual fuck are yall on about
To any Americans actually confused, let me give you to the bite sized introduction of what liberalism actually means from Philosophy Tube.
Liberalism in america and liberalism in Europe, etc are different. We have libertarianism which is closer to classic liberalism others refer to.
Nah, even in America, liberalism is defined by still being capitalist.
Yes but can include alot of socialism/social components. It is a very broad term in the US. It is more left than center but not far left. Strong social support but more fiscally central.
Liberalism is still tied to the belief in free market because that’s how the philosophy started.
I cannot stand how shitpost is literally just a place for people to shoehorn all sorts of edgy political takes. And when I say edgy, I mean the same loudmouth shit we hear all the time here.
when I say edgy, I mean the same loudmouth shit we hear all the time here
This is the real issue. Edgy is fine. “”““Edgy””“”" is tiring as fucking fuck
At least it’s after the election; the pre-election circle-jerking about how Democrats/liberals are the worst thing to happen to humanity were… suspicious.
The leftist memes never change, the only difference is we’re only allowed to speak when Liberals don’t find it inconvenient.
Can you please tell me the difference between leftist and liberal?
Liberals enshrine property rights which include land, labor (people) and capital (machinary). Thereby, the owner dominates land, labor and capital.
There are many flavors of Leftist. Proudhon stated it best as, “Property is Theft!”. Property rights are inconsistent with freedom. The owners derive their living from the labor of workers on land that was held in common with machines created by other exploited workers. Anarchy is an effort to end such domination.
Neo-Liberals are basically capitalists pretending to be anarchists. They love capitalism, and the freedoms they fight for are meant for corporations; not people.
Leftists don’t believe in a (free) market, while liberals do.
In other words, leftists generally believe buying and selling, currency, etc. should be eradicated.
There’s countless differences between leftists.
The unifying differences are anti-capitalism and being against private ownership - which in leftist thinking is differentiated from personal ownership (toothbrushes, personal housing, etc). Generally there’s some degree of anti-hierarchical values.
There’s countless differences between leftists.
They asked for the difference between leftists and liberals, not whether or not there are differences between leftists.
The unifying differences are anti-capitalism and being against private ownership - which in leftist thinking is differentiated from personal ownership (toothbrushes, personal housing, etc).
Correct.
Generally there’s some degree of anti-hierarchical values.
Same with liberals, so generally incorrect.
C-
Liberals do not want to do away with representative democracy?
Not part of any definition of “liberal” I’ve heard of, no.
Another shitty anarchist take.
Spoken like someone who’s never been accused of wrongspeak in .ml.
No one wants to be blue maga and that’s what we got
What does that mean?
It means you burned up on re-entry
No true Scotsman, eh?
Uh I’m greek?
Failing to see how that applies here
In the USA liberal is the term used to describe progressives. I believe that’s what they mean.
Any Joe Schmoe on the street in the USA will use it that way. They do not know the dictionary/philosophical definition of the term, that people on Lemmy beat on relentlessly.
No, liberals actively fight against progressives in the US.
bullshit. I hang out in progressives circles, every single American progressive world be insulted if I they are called liberal.
K
Liberals are conservatives, they want the status quo. Progressives seek to fix broken liberal policies and structures.
There is this thing where conservatives call Democratic people liberals as a pejorative. This is nonsense though as most conservatives very much support liberal structures like the system of law.
I swear. You get on the Internet and people just want to be angry and espouse their views without understanding what they’ve read in the first place.
I explained what I believe the reasoning behind the parent comment is. Nothing more. I’m not stating my personal belief or understanding of the word.
I KNOW what a liberal is by definition. It’s NOT USED THAT WAY in the USA common discourse.
People talking about their progressive circles and how the weird “liberal” gets used are missing my point too. I’m not talking about correct usage, I’m taking about common usage. The news, day to day conversation with people outside your bubble.
What you refer to as the common usage in the US is not common amongst anyone but ignorant conservatives. I clarified that for you.
Amongst many Democratic people the word is generally viewed as positive.
In the USA liberal is the term used to describe progressives.
No we don’t. We use that to describe democrats who pretend to lean left while being conservative in all but name. Actual progressives get called other things like anarchists, dirty commies, or unamerican.
Don’t forget the most damning and horrific title of “socialist”
Eh. If you’re in the know, then yes, you’re correct, but your average American probably doesn’t even understand that there’s any distinction at all, and so for those people “liberal” is the catch-all term for progressives.
If someone who actually understands politics calls me a liberal, I’m gonna protest. If my dumbfuck uncle calls me a liberal, I’ll let it lie, because that’s as close as he’s reasonably going to get to understanding my political views.
progressives understand the difference, not our fault the rest of the nation is uneducated,fuck it’s their fault schools are underfunded and refuse to learn
Basically in the Midwest anyone who is not conservative/GOP is called liberal. From center to Marx himself, all libs. It is confusing being on Lemmy where classic liberalism is used.
Neo-liberalism as well. The foundation of discussion of politics is so uprooted it takes an entire other discussion to explain and use proper terminology.
Yeah, cause that’s how those on the right view anyone left of them. The Overton Window has shifted way too far right that both capitalist neoliberals and socialists get called liberal socialists by the right despite that literally being an oxymoron.
K
The people this meme is talking about typically would not consider themselves progressive either. That it is a flavor of liberal
Take it easy on him – he can’t imagine anyone being further left than a ‘progressive’.
Just because someone is using a term with its own meanings and definition horribly incorrectly doesn’t mean it’s acceptable to perpetrate it.
My god, I’m merely explaining the original comment someone else made.
I know the pedantry is expected, but maybe we can take a step back and read intent before smashing faces into our respective keyboards?
The term progressive was invented to literally differentiate from liberals along the conservative to progressive axis. Liberals by definition don’t want systemic change, they just want to be liberal in spending towards social services and regulations, but keep the capitalist structure underneath.
Liberals want freedom of some kind: liberalism; liberty. That may be freedom for individuals or for companies. It may be a negative “freedom from interference” or positive “freedom to achieve ones desires”. That variety is what gives it its many practical meanings
You see that explanation you gave? I’m going to assume it’s correct.
But that doesn’t change the fact that those terms get used as synonyms by a lot of people in the USA.
And besides that point… I was only trying to explain what the original comment was pointing to.
The rest of the world uses the actual dictionary definition. “America uses its own definition so that must be more correct” is pretty damn yankee
Never argued that it was more correct…
I’m merely explaining the original comment someone else made.
I know the pedantry is expected, but maybe we can take a step back and read intent before smashing faces into our respective keyboards?
