https://mander.xyz/post/42872387

I received insults

Someone even posted photos of dead bodies

These comments weren’t reviewed, but I was permanently blocked because my political stance is to hope for the reunification of my country. They said I have nothing to offer, just spreading propaganda and negativity.

  • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
    11·
    3 days ago

    And how is that playing dumb?

    Because obviously you do actually know what the difference is, and are just trying to waste time.

    But they did

    And now they don’t. So why should they still have to be the one overseeing the referendum?

    I would also not accept that outcome as valid either.

    Of course, we’ve already gathered you pick and choose on this matter.

    Does this surprise you?

    No, it doesn’t surprise me at all. Whether it is “surprising” has zero bearing on the point at hand and you’re only bringing it up to waste time and dodge the point.

    We are not just talking about the Donbass, as Russia also held referendums in those regions I mentioned. And for that matter though, when did the Donbass-at-large demand referendums prior to Russia invading? The Donetsk/Luhansk Republics only at maximum managed to occupy about 1/4 of the entire region.

    This is all completely irrelevant nitpicking, and you know it.

    That’s not what I asked you. Is there a reason Russia should be seen as trustworthy when it comes to election outcomes? Would you trust any referendum held by any state on earth yourself?

    Sounds like you don’t actually believe in people’s right to self determination at all. Here’s a question for you: why should the PRC trust any referendum that the RoC does that suggests the people of Taiwan don’t want reunification?

    How a referendum begins does matter. I obviously don’t respect the legitimacy of the 1938 Austrian plebiscite, and I assume neither do you. A referendum held by a revanchist state occupying a region militarily after invading it, driving the old local government out and driving hundreds of thousands of people from their homes is going to be pretty lown down on the list of “valid and fair” referendums that could happen.

    Sounds like you only support referendums you agree with the outcomes of. Not to mention you’re ignoring the referendums that took place before the Russian invasion.

    Is it “tough luck” for Tatarstan by your logic then? Is it “tough luck” for Tibet too?

    That was your logic, dumbass. You can’t even remember your own claimed position anymore

    • Skavau@lemmy.world
      1·
      3 days ago

      Because obviously you do actually know what the difference is, and are just trying to waste time.

      No, I do not. There’s no difference here. The question remains unanswered: What’s the difference? Would it be justiified for France to notice that Wallonia hasn’t held a referendum on joining them, invade and then hold their own referendum there?

      And now they don’t. So why should they still have to be the one overseeing the referendum?

      Why should a referendum take place at all? Should military conquest be legitimised by sham elections? Why should I trust that Russia would hold a free and fair referendum here?

      Of course, we’ve already gathered you pick and choose on this matter.

      So all proposed referendums are equal, in your mind? The 1938 Anschluss was completely fair, was it?

      You know, you can support the principles of self-determination (and the referendums that usually accompany that) whilst also acknowledging that referendums can also be used by revanchist or expansionist state actors as a tool to legitimise their conquest.

      No, it doesn’t surprise me at all. Whether it is “surprising” has zero bearing on the point at hand and you’re only bringing it up to waste time and dodge the point.

      Is it not a reasonable response? Would you not expect a state to reject another country invading and occupying their territory and then trying to legitimise it through a referendum?

      And what point am I dodging?

      This is all completely irrelevant nitpicking, and you know it.

      How is this irrelevant, and nitpicking?

      Sounds like you don’t actually believe in people’s right to self determination at all.

      How do you determine whether or not an election is rigged or held with severe conduct issues, from your perspective?

      Seems to me that given hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians, most of them likely pro-Ukraine had fled Kherson, the Zap Oblast and portions of the Donbass - that any election there would be illegitimate on those grounds. But what about the timescale? Were people openly permitted in those regions to publicly campaign in favour of remaining in Ukraine? Were there any debates?

      Here’s a question for you: why should the PRC trust any referendum that the RoC does that suggests the people of Taiwan don’t want reunification?

      There’s election results and opinion polls over decades in Taiwan that consistently show the people there do not want to “reunify” with the PRC. But above all else, you present your position as unfalsifiable. How do you determine how a people’s will should be shown?

      Sounds like you only support referendums you agree with the outcomes of. Not to mention you’re ignoring the referendums that took place before the Russian invasion.

      You mean the referendums that only took place in 1/4 of the Donbass?

      Moreover, when did I say that? I already told you that it’s likely that given the demography of Crimea, that they would vote to rejoin Russia. It’s less clear in the donbass and given that Russia is hardly a nation that does honest electioneering, I don’t really trust the validity of their referendums (nevermind the issues too with an invading power organising the referendum that would legalise their takeover).

      That was your logic, dumbass. You can’t even remember your own claimed position anymore

      So when do you respect self-determination then?

      My logic is that a region should decide if it wants to join another country or not, or become independent, and not a neighbouring country that historical grievances over it breaking off. There’s an immediate and obvious conflict of interest when a larger neighbour invades and occupies a portion of another country and then immediately holds a hastily designed referendum. Are you implying that every single referendum, no matter how it emerges - the result is automatically above board and should always be respected?

      • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
        0·
        3 days ago

        No, I do not. There’s no difference here. The question remains unanswered: What’s the difference? Would it be justiified for France to notice that Wallonia hasn’t held a referendum on joining them, invade and then hold their own referendum there?

        Look, obviously I’m not going to humour this deliberately playing dumb. You know what the difference is.

        Why should a referendum take place at all? Should military conquest be legitimised by sham elections? Why should I trust that Russia would hold a free a fair referendum here?

        So, in short, you do not support the right of self determination for the people of Donbas.

        So all proposed referendums are equal, in your mind? The 1938 Anschluss was completely fair, was it?

        Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

        Is it not a reasonable response? Would you not expect a state to reject another country invading and occupying their territory and then trying to legitimise it through a referendum?

        I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

        How is this irrelevant, and nitpicking?

        For the obvious reasons you’re well aware of. If you keep doing this, I’m going to start doing it too, so don’t complain about it when I do.

        Seems to me that given hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians, most of them likely pro-Ukraine had fled Kherson, the Zap Oblast and portions of the Donbass - that any election there would be illegitimate on those grounds. But what about the timescale? Were people openly permitted in those regions to publicly campaign in favour of remaining in Ukraine? Were there any debates

        I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

        Ironically though, that means all of your arguments now apply to Ukraine. Hmm, yes, were people permitted to publicly campaign for leaving Ukraine? Oh wait, never mind; Ukraine just declared the whole referendum illegal. Oops

        My logic is that a region should decide if it wants to join another country or not, or become independent, and not a neighbourly country.

        No. That was not your logic. Once again, you can’t even remember your own position.

        There’s an immediate and obvious conflict of interest when an larger neighbour invades and occupies a portion of another country and then immediately holds a hastily designed referendum.

        What about the immediate and obvious conflict of interest from the country that controls the region refusing to recognize their desire to leave?

        Also, I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

        Are you implying that every single referendum, no matter how it emerges - the result is automatically above board and should always be respected?

        Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

        • Skavau@lemmy.world
          2·
          3 days ago

          Look, obviously I’m not going to humour this deliberately playing dumb. You know what the difference is.

          No, I do not. I will not stop. The question remains unanswered: What’s the difference? Would it be justiified for France to notice that Wallonia hasn’t held a referendum on joining them, invade and then hold their own referendum there?

          So, in short, you do not support the right of self determination for the people of Donbas.

          I reject that Russia is credibly representing the self-determination of the people of the Donbas, Zap Oblast or Kherson by holding sham elections in territory they don’t even entirely control. What about those who fled those areas?

          Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

          So you unironicaly believe that someone must believe that any referendum ever, regardless of context, regardless of voting methods, regardless of conduct should be accepted or all rejected?

          That I must believe that the Quebec referendums in Canada are on the same credibilty level of the Austrian Anschluss?

          I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

          You mean the referendum held in an area 1/4 the overall size of the Donbass? Where most people from the Donbass couldn’t vote? That referendum?

          For the obvious reasons you’re well aware of. If you keep doing this, I’m going to start doing it too, so don’t complain about it when I do.

          So no ability to answer. As usual.

          I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

          You do realise that (1) that referendum only took place in a small pocket of the Donbas.

          Nor that does that, even if somehow representative, account for the citizens of the Zap or Kherson oblasts.

          Ironically though, that means all of your arguments now apply to Ukraine. Hmm, yes, were people permitted to publicly campaign for leaving Ukraine? Oh wait, never mind; Ukraine just declared the whole referendum illegal. Oops

          Why would Ukraine acknowledge and legitimise a referendum held by occupying powers who forcibly took land from them?

          No. That was not your logic. Once again, you can’t even remember your own position.

          Yes, it was.

          What about the immediate and obvious conflict of interest from the country that controls the region refusing to recognize their desire to leave?

          Absolutely. But do you have any credible evidence that a majority of people from the Donbass wanted to leave? Or in Kherson or in the Zap oblast?

          Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

          So you do, what, reject or accept all referendums do you?

          You still haven’t given me a single reason to accept the Russian referendums held in 2022 in occupied Donbass/Kherson/Zap as fairly conducted.

          • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
            11·
            3 days ago

            No, I do not. I will not stop. The question remains unanswered: What’s the difference? Would it be justiified for France to notice that Wallonia hasn’t held a referendum on joining them, invade and then hold their own referendum there?

            Look, obviously I’m not going to humour this deliberately playing dumb. You know what the difference is.

            I reject that Russia is credibly representing the self-determination of the people of the Donbas, Zap Oblast or Kherson by holding sham elections in territory they don’t even entirely control. What about those who fled those areas?

            I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

            So you unironicaly believe that someone must believe that any referendum ever, regardless of context, regardless of voting methods, regardless of conduct should be accepted or all rejected?

            Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

            You mean the referendum held in an area 1/4 the overall size of the Donbass? Where most people from the Donbass couldn’t vote? That referendum?

            The one you had to be repeatedly told happened before the Russian invasion.

            So no ability to answer. As usual.

            Ok, I’ll start doing it to. What do you mean? I clearly gave you an answer. As I have mostly. What do you think “giving an answer” means? And what do you think “usual” means?

            You do realise that (1) that referendum only took place in a small pocket of the Donbas.

            You didn’t even know what year it took place in before this conversation

            Nor that does that, even if somehow representative, account for the citizens of the Zap or Kherson oblasts.

            You also clearly don’t realize that they aren’t part of Donbas.

            Yes, it was.

            Nope. Anyone can go back and read what you said.

            Why would Ukraine acknowledge and legitimise a referendum held by occupying powers who forcibly took land from them?

            I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

            Absolutely. But do you have any credible evidence that a majority of people from the Donbass wanted to leave?

            So no, you don’t recognize the conflict of interest.

            So you do, what, reject or accept all referendums do you?

            Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

            You still haven’t given me a single reason to accept the Russian referendums held in 2022 in occupied Donbass/Kherson/Zap as fairly conducted.

            I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

            • Skavau@lemmy.world
              2·
              3 days ago

              Look, obviously I’m not going to humour this deliberately playing dumb. You know what the difference is.

              I will not stop. The question remains unanswered: What’s the difference? Would it be justiified for France to notice that Wallonia hasn’t held a referendum on joining them, invade and then hold their own referendum there?

              I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

              And I’ve repeatedly replied that the post-2014 referendums held by the Luhansk’s People’s Republic and Donetsk Republic don’t represent everyone in the Donbass. Is that the referendum you are referring to here?

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums

              Are you referring to these?

              Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

              That’s not my perspective.

              The one you had to be repeatedly told happened before the Russian invasion.

              No, I knew that happened. I just didn’t think you genuinely thought a referendum that took place in a pocket of the Donbass area was somehow binding on the entire population of the Donbass. Apparently I was wrong.

              Ok, I’ll start doing it to. What do you mean? I clearly gave you an answer. As I have mostly. What do you think “giving an answer” means? And what do you think “usual” means?

              No, you’ve hardly provided any answers.

              You didn’t even know what year it took place in before this conversation

              As I said: No, I knew that happened. I just didn’t think you genuinely thought a referendum that took place in a pocket of the Donbass area was somehow binding on the entire population of the Donbass. Apparently I was wrong.

              You also clearly don’t realize that they aren’t part of Donbas.

              No. I’ve pointed out that Russia also held sham referendums in the Kherson and the Zap oblasts. That even if the Donbass referendums prior to 2022 in the 2014-22 republics were somehow meaningful - that wouldn’t somehow bind Kherson and the Zap oblasts. Russia also claims them too. What does the Donbass have to do with them? All you do when I bring them up is say that they’re irrelevant, for some reason.

              Nope. Anyone can go back and read what you said.

              No, it was not. That was not ever my position.

              I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

              As I said: I’m well aware of the referendums that the breakaway states conducted. I don’t see how they’re especially authoritative for the reasons I’ve already provided.

              So no, you don’t recognize the conflict of interest.

              Not what I asked you: Do you have any credible evidence that a majority of people from the Donbass wanted to leave?

              Better system than your “referendums are only legitimate if they agree with what I want” perspective.

              That’s not what I asked you. You seem to have a binary view on all referendums. So do you reject or accept them all?

              You can’t do both.

              I have repeatedly told you that the referendum was before the invasion. I can only assume that you pretending otherwise is just another instance of you deliberately wasting time.

              As I said: I’m well aware of the referendums that the breakaway states conducted. I don’t see how they’re especially authoritative for the reasons I’ve already provided.