It’s more of a pragmatic position than a political one. The “both sides are the same” people aren’t exactly right, it’s more “both sides are bad”.
As for whether I qualify as a “liberal”, there are so many definitions for the word that it doesn’t matter. In the example though it’s being used as a slur basically. There is nothing worse you can be called on Lemmy than a liberal.
Nobody truly is saying both sides are the exact same down to the atom, but instead that both are beyond bad enough to force us to try to organize outside of them, and far more similar than different. Further, communists aren’t communists simply out of ideals, but out of pragmatism. Voting for democrats is certainly easier, but doesn’t actually fix anything, meaning it isn’t a practical solution.
It’s not a solution, but as you said it’s easier. We can and should do both. Even if voting for the Democrats saves one life from climate change or ICE, it’s worth doing.
What about the cost of the signal sent to the Democrats that their current positions are enough to earn your votes?
I would respond: if not voting for the Democrats (and voting for a party to their left) saves one life from climate change, imperialism, COVID, or ICE because it pressures them to take stronger positions on those issues, it’s also worth doing.
The Democrats make it pretty clear that they do not care about our votes, or about beating Republicans. We have to organize outside of the Democratic party infrastructure, while reluctantly voting for the lesser of two evils.
The measures taken by the DNC have not meaningfully countered climate change, and the DNC funds ICE as well. It’s allowed to be easier because it won’t change anything materially, that’s what I mean by saying both are so bad that neither are acceptable.
If you need to change a lightbulb, and said lightbulb is 20 feet above you, neither a 9 foot nor 10 foot ladder will allow you to get there. The end result is the same, even if both ladders are different and one gets you closer. The hard but practical solution is to find a ladder that can actually reach the bulb!
Even if the DNC haven’t meaningfully countered climate change, they haven’t done nothing either. They also likely wouldn’t have abolished USAID which, while it existed for propaganda purposes, did save lives.
USAID was used for the purposes of solidifying compradors, and was abolished because it was getting more expensive for reduced gains as imperialism decays. It’s extremely likely that the DNC would have reduced USAID, like the GOP has (and it isn’t abolished, just transformed).
Both the DNC and GOP are servants of capital. The DNC is not a group of “nicer” capitalists. Therefore, we need to overthrow the imperialist system and establish socialism.
Even if the Democrats would’ve cut it USAID, they would’ve been far less sudden about it. According to people who work in humanitarian aid, the suddenness of Trump’s cuts to USAID got a lot of people killed in the developing world.
No actually, because despite what so many libs here seems to believe for some reason Hitler didn’t win the election, Hindenburg won, then he proceeded to appoint Hitler as chancellor and let Hitler use the position to make himself a dictator.
You still seem stuck on the idea that winning the German election was important. I’m reminding you again that it took hitler approximately 1 year to go from losing that election in 1932 to consolidating absolute power in 1933 with the Enabling Act.
It looks like Hitler’s rise to power was the result of Germany’s proportional representation political system and the inability to form government. He was able to keep forcing elections until he won.
So the analogy is not appropriate.
Took me a while to get wikipedia to tell me the voting system.
He was able to keep forcing elections until he won.
He literally did not win the election. As I just told you, he lost the election in 1932 and within a year he had essentially absolute power. Democracy didn’t matter to the nazis, they took power when they were able to practically, after hitler was appointed chancellor by Hindenburg.
If we had the electoral power you losers think we have, why aren’t you bending the knee to us instead of moderate Republicans who fantasize about throwing you into meat grinders
We aren’t ever gonna bend the knee either, so you can either start practicing your lunges or start practicing your goose stepping. I’m pretty sure I know which one you’ll choose.
I’d say Trump isn’t much better, but the Gaza Peace Plan is an improvement over the status quo from before. But the parallels between Trump and Hitler are far stronger than between Biden and Hitler, especially on domestic policy.
I’m not faulting people for not voting in 2024, Trump was more of a wildcard than Biden. Voting Biden in guaranteed a continued genocide but nobody knew what Trump would do.
Trump is an exception to the Republican rule, his foreign policy is very idiosyncratic and his domestic policy is more mask-off (metaphorically, not literally). The Republican party behind him is more uniform in their unconditional support for Israel. The Democrat party is fractured on that front and broadly (though not unanimously) united against the most murderous of Trump’s domestic policies.
Maybe abstaining or voting third-party will incite a communist revolution, I don’t know, but right now more people are dying than would under a Democrat senate majority and I don’t see them being able to make things worse in Gaza (and they’re not really ideologically pro-genocide, they just don’t care as long as they have access to Israeli military bases).
Trump is an exception to the Republican rule, not for his incompetence but for his unpredictability.
And the domestic policy of the Republicans effects the rest of the world too. Climate change is a big one, Trump would never pass the “inflation reduction act” and as much as that bill had flaws it did contribute to renewable energy in the United States. Trump also cut USAID and while that funding probably wouldn’t come back under the Democrats, it is yet another example of how non-Americans were hurt by his actions.
You wouldn’t really be getting more time though. Fascism is capitalism self-preservation response, if you started successfully mass-organizing under Hindenburg, the state would start putting in a lot of the same policies Hitler did later on. You need to act decisively and with enough force to overpower the state. Mind you, it’s not exactly like the means the Nazis seized power was especially legitimate.
You’re acting like the nazis were waiting to be given power legitimately when they in fact abolished any democracy the moment they were able to get away with it. The timeline here wasn’t driven by “can hitler get enough votes to win”, hitler took power however he could (he didn’t win the vote) and abolished voting as soon as he was able. I don’t know why you think that voting against the people who plan to abolish the right to vote will do anything, they literally openly do not respect the practice or the outcomes of votes. Politically, you are staring at the shadows on the wall of Plato’s cave and getting mad at people asking you to actually exit the cave and do something that might have an effect against fascists.
Communists who are blessed and cursed with pattern recognition: the Democrats and Republicans are part of the same omnicidal capitalist machine, and neither has any interest in changing the increasingly unbearable status quo.
If you want to talk about “reality”, you’ll quickly find yourself ostracized by Democrat supporters. Free Palestine.
Even you have reached the point where you can’t confidently affirm their differences anymore and are reduced to having to add diminutive adjectives in front to prevent yourself from getting called out for saying something that is obviously false. You’re out there fighting for the scraps left of your “argument” after we tore it to shreds, it’s frankly pathetic. And pretty funny to me so please by all means do go on.
Do you honestly believe “the Democrats and Republicans are exactly the same”. Do you not accept that the abortion policy of the Democrats is better, for example?
You mean the one where they let the Republicans repeal Roe v Wade without doing anything about it despite their candidate being president? That one? In that case please do forgive me as it’s obviously very different! If it had been a Republican Roe v Wade would have been overturned, but thanks to the Democrats Roe v Wade has been overturned but at least a democrat was president! Soooo much better!
It’s a perfect example of liberal idealism. They ignore how the world actually is, instead treating identical actions and outcomes as somehow different based on vibes.
We’ve seen what a democratic supermajority looks like. It’s one where Romneycare becomes national policy, Roe v. Wade isn’t codified, and the Bush Doctrine is expanded. Yet somehow, things would totally be different in the year of our Lord 2026 anno dominoes pizza, as if Biden’s administration wasn’t an extension of Trump.
When have the Democrats actually defended abortion? They’ve had plenty of opportunities to codify it as a right, but they don’t actually want to do that. Their abortion policy is worse than Republicans because they’re dishonest about wanting to protect it, while the Republicans are honest about being assholes who don’t believe women should have rights.
Social Democrats: The Democrats are better than Republicans.
Lemmy Communists: Liberal!!!
Social democracy literally is a form of liberalism though
Yes? That’s a very liberal position.
I didn’t even catch that TBH, but the implication that social democrats somehow AREN’T liberals is funny.
It’s more of a pragmatic position than a political one. The “both sides are the same” people aren’t exactly right, it’s more “both sides are bad”.
As for whether I qualify as a “liberal”, there are so many definitions for the word that it doesn’t matter. In the example though it’s being used as a slur basically. There is nothing worse you can be called on Lemmy than a liberal.
Nobody truly is saying both sides are the exact same down to the atom, but instead that both are beyond bad enough to force us to try to organize outside of them, and far more similar than different. Further, communists aren’t communists simply out of ideals, but out of pragmatism. Voting for democrats is certainly easier, but doesn’t actually fix anything, meaning it isn’t a practical solution.
It’s not a solution, but as you said it’s easier. We can and should do both. Even if voting for the Democrats saves one life from climate change or ICE, it’s worth doing.
What about the cost of the signal sent to the Democrats that their current positions are enough to earn your votes?
I would respond: if not voting for the Democrats (and voting for a party to their left) saves one life from climate change, imperialism, COVID, or ICE because it pressures them to take stronger positions on those issues, it’s also worth doing.
The Democrats make it pretty clear that they do not care about our votes, or about beating Republicans. We have to organize outside of the Democratic party infrastructure, while reluctantly voting for the lesser of two evils.
The measures taken by the DNC have not meaningfully countered climate change, and the DNC funds ICE as well. It’s allowed to be easier because it won’t change anything materially, that’s what I mean by saying both are so bad that neither are acceptable.
If you need to change a lightbulb, and said lightbulb is 20 feet above you, neither a 9 foot nor 10 foot ladder will allow you to get there. The end result is the same, even if both ladders are different and one gets you closer. The hard but practical solution is to find a ladder that can actually reach the bulb!
Even if the DNC haven’t meaningfully countered climate change, they haven’t done nothing either. They also likely wouldn’t have abolished USAID which, while it existed for propaganda purposes, did save lives.
USAID was used for the purposes of solidifying compradors, and was abolished because it was getting more expensive for reduced gains as imperialism decays. It’s extremely likely that the DNC would have reduced USAID, like the GOP has (and it isn’t abolished, just transformed).
Both the DNC and GOP are servants of capital. The DNC is not a group of “nicer” capitalists. Therefore, we need to overthrow the imperialist system and establish socialism.
Even if the Democrats would’ve cut it USAID, they would’ve been far less sudden about it. According to people who work in humanitarian aid, the suddenness of Trump’s cuts to USAID got a lot of people killed in the developing world.
You’ve spent this entire conversation loudly espousing your support for various flavors of Hitler. Derision is the least you deserve.
If you think that’s what I’ve been doing, you need better reading comprehension.
The last refuge of the online loser
By that logic, Hindenburg was “better” than Hitler, but choosing one still got you the other in the end.
You can guarantee yourself Hitler, or you can pragmatically choose Hindenburg and give your country a chance.
No actually, because despite what so many libs here seems to believe for some reason Hitler didn’t win the election, Hindenburg won, then he proceeded to appoint Hitler as chancellor and let Hitler use the position to make himself a dictator.
The only correct choice in that election was Thälmann.
If he had a chance of winning, yes.
He would have probably won if SPD supported him instead of Hindenburg.
You still seem stuck on the idea that winning the German election was important. I’m reminding you again that it took hitler approximately 1 year to go from losing that election in 1932 to consolidating absolute power in 1933 with the Enabling Act.
It looks like Hitler’s rise to power was the result of Germany’s proportional representation political system and the inability to form government. He was able to keep forcing elections until he won.
So the analogy is not appropriate.
Took me a while to get wikipedia to tell me the voting system.
He literally did not win the election. As I just told you, he lost the election in 1932 and within a year he had essentially absolute power. Democracy didn’t matter to the nazis, they took power when they were able to practically, after hitler was appointed chancellor by Hindenburg.
He didn’t win, he got handed power from Hindenburg.
“Sorry, I had to consult the liberal Holy Scripture”
Most historically literate liberal
historians are still trying to figure out how this happened /s
Liberals be playing Hitler Gatcha lmfao
And lemmy communists be playing Hitler cookie clicker.
If we had the electoral power you losers think we have, why aren’t you bending the knee to us instead of moderate Republicans who fantasize about throwing you into meat grinders
I’m not the one who needs to bend the knee, and those “moderate Republicans” aren’t ever going to.
Plus you’re all kind of obnoxious so I wouldn’t really want to be associated with you publicly.
Then stop complaining about us not voting for you.
Ah yes, the classic “the tankies are loud and mean so I HAD TO BECOME A FASCIST”
Not loud and mean, smug and delusional.
Okay have fun electing Hitler then.
Correction: “Moderate Hitler”.
We aren’t ever gonna bend the knee either, so you can either start practicing your lunges or start practicing your goose stepping. I’m pretty sure I know which one you’ll choose.
I’m not telling you to, mostly because it wouldn’t work. I’m just saying that despite how smart you all think you are, you don’t live in reality.
Or, maybe, you could actively resist the system that gets you Hitler no matter who you vote for through direct action and organizing?
Yeah, but maybe give yourself more time to do that by, for example, not electing Hitler.
Lol. Not beating the historically illiterate accusation
“Voting against the Nazi’s didn’t work for Germans, so let’s just try letting the Nazi’s win from the get-go”
You’re the one arguing to vote for Nazis
Remind me why the Democrats had the nicknames “Genocide Joe” and “Holocaust Harris”
I’d say Trump isn’t much better, but the Gaza Peace Plan is an improvement over the status quo from before. But the parallels between Trump and Hitler are far stronger than between Biden and Hitler, especially on domestic policy.
I’m not faulting people for not voting in 2024, Trump was more of a wildcard than Biden. Voting Biden in guaranteed a continued genocide but nobody knew what Trump would do.
Trump is an exception to the Republican rule, his foreign policy is very idiosyncratic and his domestic policy is more mask-off (metaphorically, not literally). The Republican party behind him is more uniform in their unconditional support for Israel. The Democrat party is fractured on that front and broadly (though not unanimously) united against the most murderous of Trump’s domestic policies.
Maybe abstaining or voting third-party will incite a communist revolution, I don’t know, but right now more people are dying than would under a Democrat senate majority and I don’t see them being able to make things worse in Gaza (and they’re not really ideologically pro-genocide, they just don’t care as long as they have access to Israeli military bases).
This logic works if you see non-Americans as Untermenschen. But if you don’t then Trumps sheer incompetence is the lesser evil for the world.
Trump is an exception to the Republican rule, not for his incompetence but for his unpredictability.
And the domestic policy of the Republicans effects the rest of the world too. Climate change is a big one, Trump would never pass the “inflation reduction act” and as much as that bill had flaws it did contribute to renewable energy in the United States. Trump also cut USAID and while that funding probably wouldn’t come back under the Democrats, it is yet another example of how non-Americans were hurt by his actions.
You wouldn’t really be getting more time though. Fascism is capitalism self-preservation response, if you started successfully mass-organizing under Hindenburg, the state would start putting in a lot of the same policies Hitler did later on. You need to act decisively and with enough force to overpower the state. Mind you, it’s not exactly like the means the Nazis seized power was especially legitimate.
are you aware of what happened when hindenburg was elected
After skimming wikipedia, yes. I’m also aware of what would’ve happened if Hitler was elected instead.
“No.” The response you were looking for was “No.”
Literally exactly the same thing?
The exact same thing, but faster and with less uncertainty.
And you “know” that how? A minute ago you literally didn’t know who won the election, now you’re claiming knowledge of alternative realities?
So basically no difference.
You’re acting like the nazis were waiting to be given power legitimately when they in fact abolished any democracy the moment they were able to get away with it. The timeline here wasn’t driven by “can hitler get enough votes to win”, hitler took power however he could (he didn’t win the vote) and abolished voting as soon as he was able. I don’t know why you think that voting against the people who plan to abolish the right to vote will do anything, they literally openly do not respect the practice or the outcomes of votes. Politically, you are staring at the shadows on the wall of Plato’s cave and getting mad at people asking you to actually exit the cave and do something that might have an effect against fascists.
there is no way you are this ignorant, there no hope for libs
I almost upvoted this because I thought it was a really funny joke. Liberalism is washed.
Communists who are blessed and cursed with pattern recognition: the Democrats and Republicans are part of the same omnicidal capitalist machine, and neither has any interest in changing the increasingly unbearable status quo.
If you want to talk about “reality”, you’ll quickly find yourself ostracized by Democrat supporters. Free Palestine.
The oligarchs who own America are not a monolith, nor is congress. The Democrats and Republicans are in reality, slightly different.
Even you have reached the point where you can’t confidently affirm their differences anymore and are reduced to having to add diminutive adjectives in front to prevent yourself from getting called out for saying something that is obviously false. You’re out there fighting for the scraps left of your “argument” after we tore it to shreds, it’s frankly pathetic. And pretty funny to me so please by all means do go on.
Do you honestly believe “the Democrats and Republicans are exactly the same”. Do you not accept that the abortion policy of the Democrats is better, for example?
You mean the one where they let the Republicans repeal Roe v Wade without doing anything about it despite their candidate being president? That one? In that case please do forgive me as it’s obviously very different! If it had been a Republican Roe v Wade would have been overturned, but thanks to the Democrats Roe v Wade has been overturned but at least a democrat was president! Soooo much better!
It’s a perfect example of liberal idealism. They ignore how the world actually is, instead treating identical actions and outcomes as somehow different based on vibes.
We’ve seen what a democratic supermajority looks like. It’s one where Romneycare becomes national policy, Roe v. Wade isn’t codified, and the Bush Doctrine is expanded. Yet somehow, things would totally be different in the year of our Lord 2026 anno dominoes pizza, as if Biden’s administration wasn’t an extension of Trump.
The abortion policy of the Democrats is to roll over for the Republicans
When have the Democrats actually defended abortion? They’ve had plenty of opportunities to codify it as a right, but they don’t actually want to do that. Their abortion policy is worse than Republicans because they’re dishonest about wanting to protect it, while the Republicans are honest about being assholes who don’t believe women should have rights.