It doesn’t matter anymore. The federal government is set to decay over the next decades. Eventually the federal government will lose a lot of economic leverage and blue states will just start doing shit on their own regardless of SCOTUS rulings. People in red states will get locked into a psuedo-feudal hellscape.
I’m getting out while I still can.
You accelerationists are getting what you wanted. Its just not going to result in what you thought.
You accelerationists are getting what you wanted. Its just not going to result in what you thought.
Accelerations didnt want destruction, they want the system to meaningfully evolve in the most expedient, most peaceful, most Just way possible. We stand in opposition to the “things will naturally just fix themselves if you make sure to vote dem in the primaries” crowd. (And to be clear, the republicans are hopeless)
Accelerations didnt want destruction, they want the system to meaningfully evolve in the most expedient, most peaceful, most Just way possible. We stand in opposition to the “things will naturally just fix themselves if you make sure to vote dem in the primaries” crowd.
What you want is immaterial to effective strategy. Voting/not-voting for an ideal is not something you do in the US. If you want the ideal, you work off a lesser liberal enemy by electing them and then doing on the ground work to undermine or challenge them with proper alternatives.
Instead we have fascists in power and I have never been more anti-motivated. Not demotivated, anti-motivated. Spite fuels me now. I’m a miserable wraith of what could have been, and I blame you and people like you.
You’ve dragged me into the mud and now the only way out that I could emotionally tolerate is to kick it into your face as I get out of the puddle.
HalfSalesman, have you considered that being so disappointed with reality that you have adopted a deathcult mentality is in fact evidence that you do not have a strong enough relationship with reality as it is? As in, an idealist mentality that does not consider human desire or the material world? I know I said that I wouldn’t respond further, it’s just tough to see someone so obviously unwilling to just give up the ideology of their enemies. So, I’m not making this comment to warrant a response, but to ensure that you do realize those questions are able to be asked.
Than those people definitely don’t deserve my help.
The thing is that your own life is affected by their decision.
Do you know what “First Past The Post” means?
People just have to vote majoritarily to third parties. By accepting the two party system and the lesser of two evil bullshit you are switching between slow decline and fast decline each 1 or 2 elections. Why would any politcian listen to you if they know that yo u will keep voting for them?
My better pre-2024 self didn’t view political salvation through lesser evil electoralism on its own. Its one component of a multipart strategy. An important part but not the only one.
Voting third party is a waste because its simply a bet on a completely unrealistic outcome. Its like having voter’s collectively buying a lottery ticket, with the added risk of total financial ruin.
Further, the green party only pops up during general presidential elections. They then disappear off the map every other year. They aren’t a serious political project at best and a engineered spoiler at worst.
But whatever, we’re litigating something that legitimately no longer matters.
There is no multipart strategy. Just American switching between the two parties every 1 or 2 elections
Voting third party is a waste because its simply a bet on a completely unrealistic outcome
Everything is unrealistic if people do not make effort
Further, the green party only pops up during general presidential elections. They then disappear off the map every other year. They aren’t a serious political project at best and a engineered spoiler at worst.
Bullshit. Greens no longer serve your political agenda so you stop caring about them and act like they are doing nothing when they are doing grassroot actions all over the year. While Harris only reappeared to sell her fucking stupid book.
Wait, I wanted to back up to something you said earlier in this conversation because something dawned on me:
The thing is that your own life is affected by their decision.
What do you mean by this? Was this a refutation of what I said there? Because I know their decision affected my life. Do you think this means I should help them? If so, why?
What a fascinating comment. Liberal apathy, “it doesn’t matter, the violence is inevitable,” combined with some projected guilt onto a group of people not present in this post “accelerationists.” Could you explain how accepting that fascist Dems will enact this violence and making decisions that require that violence to happen to make sense does not qualify as “accelerationism” in the vague way it is applied here?
I normally wouldn’t comment on this because, honestly, it’s usually pointless for me, but this comment along with your profile provides a great example of how liberals subscribe to fascism. It’s worth noting that liberals historically get away with writing off “red states” because of the incredible wealth inequality between them (deserved in these narratives, of course, for their moral impurity of supporting the bad fascist party instead of the good fascist party despite everyone’s purported understanding that the Republican party is predatory and anti-democratic) and the disproportionate African American population there relative to many “blue states.” To prescribe “running” as a solution to genocide and socioeconomic disparity is, quite frankly, cruel; especially so if you consider how Native American and indigenous nations within US borders came to settle and survive where they are today. To suggest that the people who stay either to fight or live with their kin and land instead of run are absolutely powerless to defend themselves is about as clear of a settler-colonial imagination of history and human life that you can ask for. If we look at your profile more, we can see how deep this goes. Ecofascists tend to apply anti-natalism, and apathetic or doomer language to their futurities because it naturalizes the violence that is needed to maintain a capitalist, liberal system before it has happened while salvaging the perceived morality of its subscribers by constructing it as a result of the innate impurity of humanity rather than an imaginary future built from very specific values and assumptions. The kicker with your profile is the term “xenofeminist,” which draws specifically on technological posthumanism in its criticism of gender and heteronormativity. For those unaware, posthumanism is meant to effectively decenter humans (and therefore, settler-colonial norms that commodify the entire material world and all life in it) but more often reproduces liberal narratives where settler-colonialism, capitalism, and imperialism are natural human behaviours and that humanity is unretrievable from that impure nature save for the intentional transformation of the species (I hope I don’t have to explain more how this easily results in eugenicist arguments). Many people who subscribe to it end up advocating for some immaterial, often technocratic solutionism. That you’ve combined that with some “soft” (unclear what you mean by that) anti-natalism, which ecofascists often use to once again construct humanity as the innate cause of capitalism’s harm and legitimize genocide by an imagined necessity of “population control.” All of that with some fun little death cult “vacuum decay” doomer talk. What a package here.
So, you’ve managed to create a narrative that, while apparently attempting to challenge or criticize fascist ideals, subscribes heavily to fascist historical narratives where the suffering and even eradication of particular groups is inevitable and in service of a more prosperous future for all, liberal constructions and relationalities of the material world that ultimately views any world that isn’t beholden to human desires (including humanity as a species) as not one worth existing in, and explicitly discounts the death and suffering of racialized groups in the US that have historically been the targets of genocide for centuries. All of this while removing yourself from any sense of responsibility, since you cannot change the entire system by your will, and are powerless over the trajectory of these political and cultural developments and attributing guilt to some other group of people who also do not wield substantial power in this system and who subscribe to political action rooted in the same sense of inevitability, except in service of abolishing liberalism instead of maintaining it (assumingly, when you say that you hate “left or right” accelerationists and also want to forgive the people who didn’t vote for Kamala Harris [how gracious] and view the election of Donald Trump as the cause of these events and not a symptom, it’s difficult to believe you’re talking about any other group than socialists or anarchists since fascists are inherently “accelerationist” ideologically). A crucial element in liberal complicity with fascism as well as how many of them advocate for ecofascism is that learned helplessness that only views total, nearly baptismal change in a liberal system as the only goal worth struggling for. For many privileged liberals who are unused to fighting, the end of the world is preferable to struggling to achieve less than utopia. Whether you want to or not, you have apparently adopted fascism into your imagination of the future.
I don’t fit into whatever “accelerationis,” is supposed to be, so please skip that as a response (and do not feel the need to respond at all), but I am deeply troubled by the amount of liberals I see who are going full fascist because of their disillusionment with this system; as though that isn’t the strategy that Democrats have adopted. Since I actually am in groups that fascists target and have been targetted by them my entire life, I’m understandably motivated to point out this kind of hypocrisy as I run into very many liberals who claim to know better for my people while siding with groups who want murder before anything else.
edit: Also, I want to make it clear that the intent here isn’t to single you out as an intentionally and irredeemably evil deceiver, but to (op advocated for genocide multiple times in their responses below, so I guess I can’t in good conscience say that I’m able to expect them to learn from this; this person is just a fascist) is to demonstrate to you as well as other liberals how the worldview that you have been socialised to believe has primed you to adopt fascistic thinking even when you do not want to be a fascist. Liberalism and fascism are inextricably linked because they have the same ideological underpinnings of humanity’s value and relationship with the material world. People who believe liberalism is inherently about democracy and acceptance, as they have been taught to believe, are not going to interrogate why that system has not produced an equal and benevolent society and therefore often conclude it is because it is not possible.
Also, Xenofeminism is not on the the same wavelength as liberalism or liberal feminism. Liberal feminism is deontological in nature, obsessed with rights and duties. Liberal Feminism fits snuggly in capitalist realism.
Xenofeminism is closer to anarcho-feminism, but with the addition of hope for a technologically induced gender and sexual singularity of sorts and ontological anti-naturalism. The only area where I’m somewhat iffy on is its stance on alienation. It itself is “accelerationist” where as I’m more humanitarian.
If we look at your profile more, we can see how deep this goes. Ecofascists tend to apply anti-natalism, and apathetic or doomer language to their futurities because it naturalizes the violence that is needed to maintain a capitalist, liberal system before it has happened while salvaging the perceived morality of its subscribers by constructing it as a result of the innate impurity of humanity rather than an imaginary future built from very specific values and assumptions. The kicker with your profile is the term “xenofeminist,” which draws specifically on technological posthumanism in its criticism of gender and heteronormativity. For those unaware, posthumanism is meant to effectively decenter humans (and therefore, settler-colonial norms that commodify the entire material world and all life in it) but more often reproduces liberal narratives where settler-colonialism, capitalism, and imperialism are natural human behaviours and that humanity is unretrievable from that impure nature save for the intentional transformation of the species (I hope I don’t have to explain more how this easily results in eugenicist arguments).
What a petulantly hostile and delusional meta-narrative laden analysis.
I’m an anti-natalist because I think it is unjust to bring someone into existence inherently. No one consents to being born. The “soft” is mostly to do with the fact that under certain theoretical societal conditions and acknowledgment by parents that they owe an eternal unpayable debt to their child I can see it as at least a forgivable grey act that can maybe lead to more good things than bad things if handled with great care.
I myself wish I was not born. I love my mom, she’s overall a good person for the most part, but shit… giving birth to me and my siblings was really fucked up of her.
I’m not an ecofascist. Ecofascism implies malthusian beliefs. Which is a collectivist idea: that individuals shouldn’t be born to protect society. This not what I am and its clear that’s what you prefer to see since you think in terms of naratives. I am an anti-natalist in order to protect the very individuals that would be born into existence itself. Greater societies can honestly get fucked if they rely on the suffering of individuals within them to exist. Societies and cultures themselves are not conscious entities, they are not morally equivalent to a person.
Also this re-occurring idea that I am “apathetic”… just fuck you. I am the way that I am because I have historically cared too much. And I’m fucking tired of caring. I still do and very much would like to stop caring but can’t. I’m in a mixed state of the anger stage and acceptance stage of grief. FUCK YOU.
A vacuum decay event would be an arguably humanitarian event. No more suffering. No more births. No more pain. No more inequity. No more petulant stupidity. Its not doomer to want an eternal peace for all.
Of course I “wish” for it with tongue planted firmly in cheek. I and many others already exist: the pandora’s box is open. And a future where I and many others do not exist is a lovecraftian horror, but I am indeed doomed to it. We all are. One day no one you know will be alive. If we could all live forever in peace and pleasure of course I’d prefer that, but I’m not delusional enough to think that will happen. Maybe ripping off the bandaid would be for the best if it’d prevent more people being born.
So, you’ve managed to create a narrative that, while apparently attempting to challenge or criticize fascist ideals, subscribes heavily to fascist historical narratives where the suffering and even eradication of particular groups is inevitable and in service of a more prosperous future for all, liberal constructions and relationalities of the material world that ultimately views any world that isn’t beholden to human desires (including humanity as a species) as not one worth existing in, and explicitly discounts the death and suffering of racialized groups in the US that have historically been the targets of genocide for centuries.
Fascists believe in a mystic occult ideals that their race or ethnicity as well as their land are supernaturally important. Fascists do not give a shit about people living lives worth living. That is not compatible with your analysis.
All of this while removing yourself from any sense of responsibility, since you cannot change the entire system by your will, and are powerless over the trajectory of these political and cultural developments and attributing guilt to some other group of people who also do not wield substantial power in this system and who subscribe to political action rooted in the same sense of inevitability, except in service of abolishing liberalism instead of maintaining it
I don’t really believe in free will. My blame of accelerationists is, if I take a lack of free will to an logical conclusion, simply a source of catharsis at this point. Me screaming into the void to feel something other than despair. Rage is preferable to despair.
So this “responsibility” talking point is intellectually a dead end for me.
But even if I did believe in free will and responsibility, in so far int those frameworks how am I responsible? I never choose to be born remember. I don’t owe you shit. You don’t owe me shit.
Are people born with an “original sin” of social responsibility?
A crucial element in liberal complicity with fascism as well as how many of them advocate for ecofascism is that learned helplessness that only views total, nearly baptismal change in a liberal system as the only goal worth struggling for. For many privileged liberals who are unused to fighting, the end of the world is preferable to struggling to achieve less than utopia. Whether you want to or not, you have apparently adopted fascism into your imagination of the future.
I would not describe my life as a privileged one. But if it is, than holy shit that just intensifies my belief that life is hell and I’m just in a slightly less firey part of it. That doesn’t exactly inspire me to think I ought to advocate people suffer more for the small chance of a slightly less shit existence.
Again though, that’s not fascism. Its really hard to believe you exist in the same reality as me when you keep describing these things as fascist. I’d say you aren’t being good faith, but this post is too prolific for that. You are probably just lost in the sauce.
I don’t fit into whatever “accelerationis,” is supposed to be, so please skip that as a response (and do not feel the need to respond at all), but I am deeply troubled by the amount of liberals I see who are going full fascist because of their disillusionment with this system; as though that isn’t the strategy that Democrats have adopted. Since I actually am in groups that fascists target and have been targetted by them my entire life, I’m understandably motivated to point out this kind of hypocrisy as I run into very many liberals who claim to know better for my people while siding with groups who want murder before anything else.
If you think that it doesn’t matter which party wins, what is your motivation to even bother with the voting discourse at all? Why do you fucking care?
I don’t understand what you are trying to achieve. Are you trying to do apologia for non-voting in 2024? Are you trying to guilt trip me into fighting and dying? Which one?
I’d say you could really stick it to me by voting red but then I cannot invest emotionally in trying to change people’s minds on voting. Eventually, I’m just going to vote blue for self interest and general harm reduction and shut up about it. I’ve learned my lesson: I can’t change people’s minds and get them to vote, so I’ll stop wasting energy trying to do that. In that sense your side has won.
edit: Also, I want to make it clear that the intent here isn’t to single you out as an intentionally and irredeemably evil deceiver, but to demonstrate to you as well as other liberals how the worldview that you have been socialised to believe has primed you to adopt fascistic thinking even when you do not want to be a fascist. Liberalism and fascism are inextricably linked because they have the same ideological underpinnings of humanity’s value and relationship with the material world. People who believe liberalism is inherently about democracy and acceptance, as they have been taught to believe, are not going to interrogate why that system has not produced an equal and benevolent society and therefore often conclude it is because it is not possible.
Except what you’ve described and what I actually am is not fascism. Neither is of them are fascism. What you’ve described is a smug malthusian liberal, shitty but not fascism. What I actually am is more of a despairing consequentialist turned cynical bitter egoist trying to not go insane.
Now that you’ve tried analysis of me as as you have, let me try: Your entire belief system is seemingly structured like a fairy tale. A grand narrative to justify suffering and pain. Motivated reasoning more or less akin to what religious people engage with. You condemn people for not jumping into fight the torment nexus for fear of falling into it. You think individuals owe the collective something when its the other way around. You chastise people for not being sufficiently virtuous and self-sacrificing and for seeking a better life away from the bullshit.
What a fascinating comment. Liberal apathy, “it doesn’t matter, the violence is inevitable,” combined with some projected guilt onto a group of people not present in this post “accelerationists.”
You are clearly fascinated given the length of your response. However you are seeing in me what you want to see.
If you think consequentialism makes me a liberal you don’t know what those words mean.
That said, I actually somewhat respect a long and thorough response, assuming its in good faith. I feel like what I’ve got here is somewhat of a mixed bag from you.
Could you explain how accepting that fascist Dems will enact this violence and making decisions that require that violence to happen to make sense does not qualify as “accelerationism” in the vague way it is applied here?
Because that’s not what accelerationism is. Maybe you aren’t an accelerationist, maybe you’re just aligned with them or an apologist for them.
I normally wouldn’t comment on this because, honestly, it’s usually pointless for me, but this comment along with your profile provides a great example of how liberals subscribe to fascism. It’s worth noting that liberals historically get away with writing off “red states” because of the incredible wealth inequality between them (deserved in these narratives, of course, for their moral impurity of supporting the bad fascist party instead of the good fascist party despite everyone’s purported understanding that the Republican party is predatory and anti-democratic) and the disproportionate African American population there relative to many “blue states.”
This isn’t fascism that you are describing. You are using the word to suit your purposes here. What you are describing is also not reality, liberals “write off” red states for many reasons. I’m going to avoid wasting my time listing them because I’m sure you are already aware of them and I am not a liberal. But also because “writing off” itself is a pretty broad thing and I’m not entirely sure in what way you are using the phrase.
Now, personally as an individual, I write off red states because they are full of petulantly stupid fucking people who hate me and people I love. I live in a fucking red state at the moment because I grew up here, I’ve lived all over the same shitty red state for almost 90% of my life and its absolutely filled to the brim with awful fucking people. And even in its blue/purple areas, (which I live at now) most of the people here are subconsciously tied to conservative social beliefs, even the good ones. I’m exhausted by it. I’m going to get the fuck out of this hell hole if it fucking kills me, largely because it already is killing me. I feel like I’ve wasted so many years trying to live here.
To prescribe “running” as a solution to genocide and socioeconomic disparity is, quite frankly, cruel; especially so if you consider how Native American and indigenous nations within US borders came to settle and survive where they are today. To suggest that the people who stay either to fight or live with their kin and land instead of run are absolutely powerless to defend themselves is about as clear of a settler-colonial imagination of history and human life that you can ask for.
People are not land. To connect land to people is far more fascistic in my mind. Borders are stupid.
If you live among people who refuse to flee with you, they are probably traditionalist or conservative. Afraid of change, that is their burden not burden of the person wanting to flee. The individual caught in a web of traditionalist native culture against a fascistic external machine owes neither party their loyalty, no one chooses to be born. Thus if anything, individuals are owed a debt for being brought into existence.
I do not owe these people to stay and fight. I’m not defined by the land I grew up on.
Wow, okay I was nice in the first message but this is actual straight up colonizer speak (edit real quick: and also an inadvertent confession, op stated that they grew up in a fascist culture but think of themself as too pure to have internalized values; the mistake that my comment is explicitly meant to teach about). “People are not land… people who refuse to flee with you, they are probably traditionalist or conservative.” Literally, literally a fundamental element in Land Back and other decolonial movements focus on the relationship between people and land exactly because severing that relationship is colonialism and many indigenous nations not only in North America, but throughout the colonized world explicitly state the restoration of that relationship as crucial to reconciliation. Even more, to suggest that indigenous nations that fight to stay are somehow morally at fault and are conservatives in a liberal sense is fucking genocidal. Which makes sense since you also just said some insane shit like, “vacuum decay is a humanitarian event,” like that doesn’t mean you think colonized people deserve to die because humanity is too morally impure for your God or whatever.
So much of the rest of these responses are circular arguments that do not actually relate to the scholarly ideas you think you’re engaging with. I take back what I said earlier, you actually aren’t a good person, and you are a fascist. LIke every fascist, you refuse the label but accept the values. Won’t be engaging with you again. (edit: I’d let go of Pandora too I guess, lol)
That is the consequence of what you’ve said here. As you were so apt to say, nobody owes anybody anything really, but people who adopt fascistic reasons not to make it so that any cooperation becomes a vector to cause even more harm; even if that harm is just them getting another chance to talk and spread their values. Fascists never want to accept the consequences of their actions because they feel wronged by them, hence the relationship between it, liberalism, and the decayed metropole. The world is wrong to refuse their will, no matter how self-destructive it is. And make no mistake, fascism is rooted in self-destruction in the same what that capitalism is, they’ll kill themselves and everyone else before they accept the consequences of their violence. That isn’t because they’re stupid, crazy or exceptionally hateful (even while they are), but because they have accepted that the world cannot produce what they want without that violence. You see why I took note of the circularity of your beliefs? You did say you were from the core, didn’t you?
Last lesson for real this time, you can take it or leave it.
You see why I took note of the circularity of your beliefs?
I don’t relate to the individual you are describing if you are using that to describe what you think I believe. I’m not aiming to enact violence. I’m aiming to flee it and tell other’s to try and avoid it. To seek safer spaces. On my selfish side I’m just trying to live the best life I can. One my moral philosophy side I’m advocating to minimize societally induced harm to every individual (if a tad over simplification).
Hell, this very critique you’ve produced could be levied at authoritarian leftists. Who’d enthusiastically agree that violence is necessary to achieve and maintain their goals and point at liberalism and insist they do the exact same thing.
You did say you were from the core, didn’t you?
While its made a difference I’m sure in making me who I am, this doesn’t refute my points or beliefs.
Its all just a nationalist talking point, but “from the other side”. Racial/ethnic animus as a political hammer. I don’t respect it.
Last lesson for real this time, you can take it or leave it.
I will always “take it”. But not in the way you might want me to.
“lesson” You have a high opinion of yourself.
I suppose I also do have a high opinion of myself in my own way, but unlike you I have a ravenous intellectual hunger for philosophical refutation of my own ideas that lemmy and for that matter most people refuse to give me. I legitimately am baffled why you don’t tear apart my posts piece by piece despite your confidence in your own beliefs. I don’t relate. I revel in chewing through everyone else’s ideas. When I find beliefs that fundamentally challenge mine at a deep rational level, its a thing to be celebrated. Its a meal. When I run across someone who is just wrong, I also at least get the catharsis of raging at their stupidity and evil.
At this point I know you don’t avoid my points because you lack energy to do so.
In you I see someone who may earnestly believe what they say but is afraid to consider things that might fracture or damage their existing beliefs. In order to refute my points, you have to actually consider them…
In a red state? At the very least for your own well being I’d advise taking refuge in a blue state. In the long run red states are going to be misery factories.
How’s that incrementalism working out for you? 50 years of lesser evil baby steps has only resulted in a strong, solid march to the right and our current level of fascism.
Blue states don’t give a flying fuck about people any more than red states. California has a bulletproof Democrat supermajority. They don’t have livable wages, they don’t have affordable housing, they don’t have universal health care. They don’t have affordable living. Any more than someone making minimum wage in Alabama.
What you just described is in fact how liberalism has responded to the popularity of its challengers; it’s how it colonizes. Liberal historical narratives subscribe to progressivism, the idea that society is inevitably on a path toward equality, the end of scarcity, any “good” that is necessary to justify its existence. They disarmed African American Liberationist movements by adopting the Civil Rights Act and situating the deterimination and condemnation of racism within the legal framework of a fundamentally racist system, which turned out predictably. Jasbir Puar coined the term “homonationalism” to describe the specific kind of pro-imperialist queerness that emerged following the legal acceptance of queer property and marriage rights in a period of US military expansion into Iraq and Afghanistan. The AIDS genocide and subsequent necessity of establishing property rights for widowed spouses functioned similarly to disarm gender and marriage abolition movements within queer critiques of liberalism, which established a privileged class of queer people who promptly betrayed the rest of us for material comfort.
This isn’t to say there was no value in these concessions – obviously, we have to use whatever tool we have at our disposal including the incidental cooperation of the liberal state – but that the consequences of these developments teaches us that this is an existential conflict. There is no world where a liberal state exists without genocidal violence and the longer it exists, the more violence it will execute.
It doesn’t matter anymore. The federal government is set to decay over the next decades. Eventually the federal government will lose a lot of economic leverage and blue states will just start doing shit on their own regardless of SCOTUS rulings. People in red states will get locked into a psuedo-feudal hellscape.
I’m getting out while I still can.
You accelerationists are getting what you wanted. Its just not going to result in what you thought.
Accelerations didnt want destruction, they want the system to meaningfully evolve in the most expedient, most peaceful, most Just way possible. We stand in opposition to the “things will naturally just fix themselves if you make sure to vote dem in the primaries” crowd. (And to be clear, the republicans are hopeless)
What you want is immaterial to effective strategy. Voting/not-voting for an ideal is not something you do in the US. If you want the ideal, you work off a lesser liberal enemy by electing them and then doing on the ground work to undermine or challenge them with proper alternatives.
Instead we have fascists in power and I have never been more anti-motivated. Not demotivated, anti-motivated. Spite fuels me now. I’m a miserable wraith of what could have been, and I blame you and people like you.
You’ve dragged me into the mud and now the only way out that I could emotionally tolerate is to kick it into your face as I get out of the puddle.
HalfSalesman, have you considered that being so disappointed with reality that you have adopted a deathcult mentality is in fact evidence that you do not have a strong enough relationship with reality as it is? As in, an idealist mentality that does not consider human desire or the material world? I know I said that I wouldn’t respond further, it’s just tough to see someone so obviously unwilling to just give up the ideology of their enemies. So, I’m not making this comment to warrant a response, but to ensure that you do realize those questions are able to be asked.
If my relationship with material reality is weak, your questions wont save me. For all I know you’re not real shrugs.
I imagine that’s not what you meant though. Maybe you are talking about axioms? Analysis structures?
People decided that Trump was the lesser of the two evil . It wouldn’t happen without the lesser of the two evil bullshit rhetoric
Than those people definitely don’t deserve my help.
Do you know what “First Past The Post” means?
The thing is that your own life is affected by their decision.
People just have to vote majoritarily to third parties. By accepting the two party system and the lesser of two evil bullshit you are switching between slow decline and fast decline each 1 or 2 elections. Why would any politcian listen to you if they know that yo u will keep voting for them?
My better pre-2024 self didn’t view political salvation through lesser evil electoralism on its own. Its one component of a multipart strategy. An important part but not the only one.
Voting third party is a waste because its simply a bet on a completely unrealistic outcome. Its like having voter’s collectively buying a lottery ticket, with the added risk of total financial ruin.
Further, the green party only pops up during general presidential elections. They then disappear off the map every other year. They aren’t a serious political project at best and a engineered spoiler at worst.
But whatever, we’re litigating something that legitimately no longer matters.
There is no multipart strategy. Just American switching between the two parties every 1 or 2 elections
Everything is unrealistic if people do not make effort
Bullshit. Greens no longer serve your political agenda so you stop caring about them and act like they are doing nothing when they are doing grassroot actions all over the year. While Harris only reappeared to sell her fucking stupid book.
Wait, I wanted to back up to something you said earlier in this conversation because something dawned on me:
What do you mean by this? Was this a refutation of what I said there? Because I know their decision affected my life. Do you think this means I should help them? If so, why?
What a fascinating comment. Liberal apathy, “it doesn’t matter, the violence is inevitable,” combined with some projected guilt onto a group of people not present in this post “accelerationists.” Could you explain how accepting that fascist Dems will enact this violence and making decisions that require that violence to happen to make sense does not qualify as “accelerationism” in the vague way it is applied here?
I normally wouldn’t comment on this because, honestly, it’s usually pointless for me, but this comment along with your profile provides a great example of how liberals subscribe to fascism. It’s worth noting that liberals historically get away with writing off “red states” because of the incredible wealth inequality between them (deserved in these narratives, of course, for their moral impurity of supporting the bad fascist party instead of the good fascist party despite everyone’s purported understanding that the Republican party is predatory and anti-democratic) and the disproportionate African American population there relative to many “blue states.” To prescribe “running” as a solution to genocide and socioeconomic disparity is, quite frankly, cruel; especially so if you consider how Native American and indigenous nations within US borders came to settle and survive where they are today. To suggest that the people who stay either to fight or live with their kin and land instead of run are absolutely powerless to defend themselves is about as clear of a settler-colonial imagination of history and human life that you can ask for. If we look at your profile more, we can see how deep this goes. Ecofascists tend to apply anti-natalism, and apathetic or doomer language to their futurities because it naturalizes the violence that is needed to maintain a capitalist, liberal system before it has happened while salvaging the perceived morality of its subscribers by constructing it as a result of the innate impurity of humanity rather than an imaginary future built from very specific values and assumptions. The kicker with your profile is the term “xenofeminist,” which draws specifically on technological posthumanism in its criticism of gender and heteronormativity. For those unaware, posthumanism is meant to effectively decenter humans (and therefore, settler-colonial norms that commodify the entire material world and all life in it) but more often reproduces liberal narratives where settler-colonialism, capitalism, and imperialism are natural human behaviours and that humanity is unretrievable from that impure nature save for the intentional transformation of the species (I hope I don’t have to explain more how this easily results in eugenicist arguments). Many people who subscribe to it end up advocating for some immaterial, often technocratic solutionism. That you’ve combined that with some “soft” (unclear what you mean by that) anti-natalism, which ecofascists often use to once again construct humanity as the innate cause of capitalism’s harm and legitimize genocide by an imagined necessity of “population control.” All of that with some fun little death cult “vacuum decay” doomer talk. What a package here.
So, you’ve managed to create a narrative that, while apparently attempting to challenge or criticize fascist ideals, subscribes heavily to fascist historical narratives where the suffering and even eradication of particular groups is inevitable and in service of a more prosperous future for all, liberal constructions and relationalities of the material world that ultimately views any world that isn’t beholden to human desires (including humanity as a species) as not one worth existing in, and explicitly discounts the death and suffering of racialized groups in the US that have historically been the targets of genocide for centuries. All of this while removing yourself from any sense of responsibility, since you cannot change the entire system by your will, and are powerless over the trajectory of these political and cultural developments and attributing guilt to some other group of people who also do not wield substantial power in this system and who subscribe to political action rooted in the same sense of inevitability, except in service of abolishing liberalism instead of maintaining it (assumingly, when you say that you hate “left or right” accelerationists and also want to forgive the people who didn’t vote for Kamala Harris [how gracious] and view the election of Donald Trump as the cause of these events and not a symptom, it’s difficult to believe you’re talking about any other group than socialists or anarchists since fascists are inherently “accelerationist” ideologically). A crucial element in liberal complicity with fascism as well as how many of them advocate for ecofascism is that learned helplessness that only views total, nearly baptismal change in a liberal system as the only goal worth struggling for. For many privileged liberals who are unused to fighting, the end of the world is preferable to struggling to achieve less than utopia. Whether you want to or not, you have apparently adopted fascism into your imagination of the future.
I don’t fit into whatever “accelerationis,” is supposed to be, so please skip that as a response (and do not feel the need to respond at all), but I am deeply troubled by the amount of liberals I see who are going full fascist because of their disillusionment with this system; as though that isn’t the strategy that Democrats have adopted. Since I actually am in groups that fascists target and have been targetted by them my entire life, I’m understandably motivated to point out this kind of hypocrisy as I run into very many liberals who claim to know better for my people while siding with groups who want murder before anything else.
edit: Also, I want to make it clear that the intent here
isn’t to single you out as an intentionally and irredeemably evil deceiver, but to(op advocated for genocide multiple times in their responses below, so I guess I can’t in good conscience say that I’m able to expect them to learn from this; this person is just a fascist) is to demonstrate to you as well as other liberals how the worldview that you have been socialised to believe has primed you to adopt fascistic thinking even when you do not want to be a fascist. Liberalism and fascism are inextricably linked because they have the same ideological underpinnings of humanity’s value and relationship with the material world. People who believe liberalism is inherently about democracy and acceptance, as they have been taught to believe, are not going to interrogate why that system has not produced an equal and benevolent society and therefore often conclude it is because it is not possible.Also, Xenofeminism is not on the the same wavelength as liberalism or liberal feminism. Liberal feminism is deontological in nature, obsessed with rights and duties. Liberal Feminism fits snuggly in capitalist realism.
Xenofeminism is closer to anarcho-feminism, but with the addition of hope for a technologically induced gender and sexual singularity of sorts and ontological anti-naturalism. The only area where I’m somewhat iffy on is its stance on alienation. It itself is “accelerationist” where as I’m more humanitarian.
Part 2:
What a petulantly hostile and delusional meta-narrative laden analysis.
I’m an anti-natalist because I think it is unjust to bring someone into existence inherently. No one consents to being born. The “soft” is mostly to do with the fact that under certain theoretical societal conditions and acknowledgment by parents that they owe an eternal unpayable debt to their child I can see it as at least a forgivable grey act that can maybe lead to more good things than bad things if handled with great care.
I myself wish I was not born. I love my mom, she’s overall a good person for the most part, but shit… giving birth to me and my siblings was really fucked up of her.
I’m not an ecofascist. Ecofascism implies malthusian beliefs. Which is a collectivist idea: that individuals shouldn’t be born to protect society. This not what I am and its clear that’s what you prefer to see since you think in terms of naratives. I am an anti-natalist in order to protect the very individuals that would be born into existence itself. Greater societies can honestly get fucked if they rely on the suffering of individuals within them to exist. Societies and cultures themselves are not conscious entities, they are not morally equivalent to a person.
Also this re-occurring idea that I am “apathetic”… just fuck you. I am the way that I am because I have historically cared too much. And I’m fucking tired of caring. I still do and very much would like to stop caring but can’t. I’m in a mixed state of the anger stage and acceptance stage of grief. FUCK YOU.
A vacuum decay event would be an arguably humanitarian event. No more suffering. No more births. No more pain. No more inequity. No more petulant stupidity. Its not doomer to want an eternal peace for all.
Of course I “wish” for it with tongue planted firmly in cheek. I and many others already exist: the pandora’s box is open. And a future where I and many others do not exist is a lovecraftian horror, but I am indeed doomed to it. We all are. One day no one you know will be alive. If we could all live forever in peace and pleasure of course I’d prefer that, but I’m not delusional enough to think that will happen. Maybe ripping off the bandaid would be for the best if it’d prevent more people being born.
Fascists believe in a mystic occult ideals that their race or ethnicity as well as their land are supernaturally important. Fascists do not give a shit about people living lives worth living. That is not compatible with your analysis.
I don’t really believe in free will. My blame of accelerationists is, if I take a lack of free will to an logical conclusion, simply a source of catharsis at this point. Me screaming into the void to feel something other than despair. Rage is preferable to despair.
So this “responsibility” talking point is intellectually a dead end for me.
But even if I did believe in free will and responsibility, in so far int those frameworks how am I responsible? I never choose to be born remember. I don’t owe you shit. You don’t owe me shit.
Are people born with an “original sin” of social responsibility?
I would not describe my life as a privileged one. But if it is, than holy shit that just intensifies my belief that life is hell and I’m just in a slightly less firey part of it. That doesn’t exactly inspire me to think I ought to advocate people suffer more for the small chance of a slightly less shit existence.
Again though, that’s not fascism. Its really hard to believe you exist in the same reality as me when you keep describing these things as fascist. I’d say you aren’t being good faith, but this post is too prolific for that. You are probably just lost in the sauce.
If you think that it doesn’t matter which party wins, what is your motivation to even bother with the voting discourse at all? Why do you fucking care?
I don’t understand what you are trying to achieve. Are you trying to do apologia for non-voting in 2024? Are you trying to guilt trip me into fighting and dying? Which one?
I’d say you could really stick it to me by voting red but then I cannot invest emotionally in trying to change people’s minds on voting. Eventually, I’m just going to vote blue for self interest and general harm reduction and shut up about it. I’ve learned my lesson: I can’t change people’s minds and get them to vote, so I’ll stop wasting energy trying to do that. In that sense your side has won.
Except what you’ve described and what I actually am is not fascism. Neither is of them are fascism. What you’ve described is a smug malthusian liberal, shitty but not fascism. What I actually am is more of a despairing consequentialist turned cynical bitter egoist trying to not go insane.
Now that you’ve tried analysis of me as as you have, let me try: Your entire belief system is seemingly structured like a fairy tale. A grand narrative to justify suffering and pain. Motivated reasoning more or less akin to what religious people engage with. You condemn people for not jumping into fight the torment nexus for fear of falling into it. You think individuals owe the collective something when its the other way around. You chastise people for not being sufficiently virtuous and self-sacrificing and for seeking a better life away from the bullshit.
Split response due to character limits.
You are clearly fascinated given the length of your response. However you are seeing in me what you want to see.
If you think consequentialism makes me a liberal you don’t know what those words mean.
That said, I actually somewhat respect a long and thorough response, assuming its in good faith. I feel like what I’ve got here is somewhat of a mixed bag from you.
Because that’s not what accelerationism is. Maybe you aren’t an accelerationist, maybe you’re just aligned with them or an apologist for them.
This isn’t fascism that you are describing. You are using the word to suit your purposes here. What you are describing is also not reality, liberals “write off” red states for many reasons. I’m going to avoid wasting my time listing them because I’m sure you are already aware of them and I am not a liberal. But also because “writing off” itself is a pretty broad thing and I’m not entirely sure in what way you are using the phrase.
Now, personally as an individual, I write off red states because they are full of petulantly stupid fucking people who hate me and people I love. I live in a fucking red state at the moment because I grew up here, I’ve lived all over the same shitty red state for almost 90% of my life and its absolutely filled to the brim with awful fucking people. And even in its blue/purple areas, (which I live at now) most of the people here are subconsciously tied to conservative social beliefs, even the good ones. I’m exhausted by it. I’m going to get the fuck out of this hell hole if it fucking kills me, largely because it already is killing me. I feel like I’ve wasted so many years trying to live here.
People are not land. To connect land to people is far more fascistic in my mind. Borders are stupid.
If you live among people who refuse to flee with you, they are probably traditionalist or conservative. Afraid of change, that is their burden not burden of the person wanting to flee. The individual caught in a web of traditionalist native culture against a fascistic external machine owes neither party their loyalty, no one chooses to be born. Thus if anything, individuals are owed a debt for being brought into existence.
I do not owe these people to stay and fight. I’m not defined by the land I grew up on.
Wow, okay I was nice in the first message but this is actual straight up colonizer speak (edit real quick: and also an inadvertent confession, op stated that they grew up in a fascist culture but think of themself as too pure to have internalized values; the mistake that my comment is explicitly meant to teach about). “People are not land… people who refuse to flee with you, they are probably traditionalist or conservative.” Literally, literally a fundamental element in Land Back and other decolonial movements focus on the relationship between people and land exactly because severing that relationship is colonialism and many indigenous nations not only in North America, but throughout the colonized world explicitly state the restoration of that relationship as crucial to reconciliation. Even more, to suggest that indigenous nations that fight to stay are somehow morally at fault and are conservatives in a liberal sense is fucking genocidal. Which makes sense since you also just said some insane shit like, “vacuum decay is a humanitarian event,” like that doesn’t mean you think colonized people deserve to die because humanity is too morally impure for your God or whatever.
So much of the rest of these responses are circular arguments that do not actually relate to the scholarly ideas you think you’re engaging with. I take back what I said earlier, you actually aren’t a good person, and you are a fascist. LIke every fascist, you refuse the label but accept the values.
Won’t be engaging with you again.(edit: I’d let go of Pandora too I guess, lol)So you want to dump your ideas onto me without rationally defending them. Doesn’t seem like you engaged with me much at all in the first place.
That is the consequence of what you’ve said here. As you were so apt to say, nobody owes anybody anything really, but people who adopt fascistic reasons not to make it so that any cooperation becomes a vector to cause even more harm; even if that harm is just them getting another chance to talk and spread their values. Fascists never want to accept the consequences of their actions because they feel wronged by them, hence the relationship between it, liberalism, and the decayed metropole. The world is wrong to refuse their will, no matter how self-destructive it is. And make no mistake, fascism is rooted in self-destruction in the same what that capitalism is, they’ll kill themselves and everyone else before they accept the consequences of their violence. That isn’t because they’re stupid, crazy or exceptionally hateful (even while they are), but because they have accepted that the world cannot produce what they want without that violence. You see why I took note of the circularity of your beliefs? You did say you were from the core, didn’t you?
Last lesson for real this time, you can take it or leave it.
I don’t relate to the individual you are describing if you are using that to describe what you think I believe. I’m not aiming to enact violence. I’m aiming to flee it and tell other’s to try and avoid it. To seek safer spaces. On my selfish side I’m just trying to live the best life I can. One my moral philosophy side I’m advocating to minimize societally induced harm to every individual (if a tad over simplification).
Hell, this very critique you’ve produced could be levied at authoritarian leftists. Who’d enthusiastically agree that violence is necessary to achieve and maintain their goals and point at liberalism and insist they do the exact same thing.
While its made a difference I’m sure in making me who I am, this doesn’t refute my points or beliefs.
Its all just a nationalist talking point, but “from the other side”. Racial/ethnic animus as a political hammer. I don’t respect it.
I will always “take it”. But not in the way you might want me to.
“lesson” You have a high opinion of yourself.
I suppose I also do have a high opinion of myself in my own way, but unlike you I have a ravenous intellectual hunger for philosophical refutation of my own ideas that lemmy and for that matter most people refuse to give me. I legitimately am baffled why you don’t tear apart my posts piece by piece despite your confidence in your own beliefs. I don’t relate. I revel in chewing through everyone else’s ideas. When I find beliefs that fundamentally challenge mine at a deep rational level, its a thing to be celebrated. Its a meal. When I run across someone who is just wrong, I also at least get the catharsis of raging at their stupidity and evil.
At this point I know you don’t avoid my points because you lack energy to do so.
In you I see someone who may earnestly believe what they say but is afraid to consider things that might fracture or damage their existing beliefs. In order to refute my points, you have to actually consider them…
I’m staying, I was born here and I will die here.
You don’t realize that the “acceleration” is international? Oh dear.
If it wasn’t for Deutsch bank, Trump would have died in ignominy. The accelerators are global… you can’t run away from Earth. Good luck!
In a red state? At the very least for your own well being I’d advise taking refuge in a blue state. In the long run red states are going to be misery factories.
How’s that incrementalism working out for you? 50 years of lesser evil baby steps has only resulted in a strong, solid march to the right and our current level of fascism.
Blue states don’t give a flying fuck about people any more than red states. California has a bulletproof Democrat supermajority. They don’t have livable wages, they don’t have affordable housing, they don’t have universal health care. They don’t have affordable living. Any more than someone making minimum wage in Alabama.
What you just described is in fact how liberalism has responded to the popularity of its challengers; it’s how it colonizes. Liberal historical narratives subscribe to progressivism, the idea that society is inevitably on a path toward equality, the end of scarcity, any “good” that is necessary to justify its existence. They disarmed African American Liberationist movements by adopting the Civil Rights Act and situating the deterimination and condemnation of racism within the legal framework of a fundamentally racist system, which turned out predictably. Jasbir Puar coined the term “homonationalism” to describe the specific kind of pro-imperialist queerness that emerged following the legal acceptance of queer property and marriage rights in a period of US military expansion into Iraq and Afghanistan. The AIDS genocide and subsequent necessity of establishing property rights for widowed spouses functioned similarly to disarm gender and marriage abolition movements within queer critiques of liberalism, which established a privileged class of queer people who promptly betrayed the rest of us for material comfort.
This isn’t to say there was no value in these concessions – obviously, we have to use whatever tool we have at our disposal including the incidental cooperation of the liberal state – but that the consequences of these developments teaches us that this is an existential conflict. There is no world where a liberal state exists without genocidal violence and the longer it exists, the more violence it will execute.
Not an incrementalist.
The worst of them are competent stewards of liberalism with social values to match. Just not socialist unfortunately.
The best of the red state governments are fascists who if they could would kill me.