It’s not bigotry for women to be uncomfortable around men in women only space. While I try my best to treat trans women as women, it’s not right to demand that women feel as comfortable around trans women as they do around cis women.
Tenderizer literally called transwomen men. That’s pretty textbook bigotry. Not sure what you’re complaining about here, apart from the fact that Taleya called it what it was.
I did not. I was referred to cis men in that sentence, to explain why the term bigotry doesn’t apply to matters of privacy. Either way treating that as some kind of gotcha is so very expected.
Oh dear. Please don’t try that martyred crap. There is a very clear line of conversational progression here and you literally said "It’s not bigotry for women to be uncomfortable around men in women only space. "
I understand that you’re coming at this from a reasonable place, but this comment seems unusually hostile in a way your previous comments weren’t. I understand what you’re saying about the role of emotions, but we have to decide as a society that your emotions end where others’ rights begin, otherwise we could go down a very dark path. Racists could easily argue that banning indigenous ppl from white society is valid because they have their own indigenous communities.
My tone was probably a bit harsh because I was getting frustrated with how dogmatic the “trans women are women” crowd is. Yes we should individually treat them as such, the law should also treat them as such, but drawing a legal line that they should be treated as such is a step too far.
The needs to trans people should be accommodated. But the preferences of the more dogmatic trans people should not be respected at any cost, there has to be room for another’s comfort.
I am a trans woman myself so I understand how they feel. We’re an inherently small part of the population and there’s an extreme sense of vulnerability that comes with that. I think you’d understand if you were part of the demographic. I’m sorry that you feel frustrated though, truly, because I know that you mean well.
Once again I understand what you’re saying and acknowledge that you’re not coming at this from a place of malice (at least that’s how I see it). That being said, I’ve never met anyone who actually had some of kind phobia of people assigned male at birth (AMAB), or trans women specifically, in the context that you’re describing. I think it’s a wedge issue that causes people to feel strongly without there really being much rational basis for it, which I think you acknowledged to an extent? We can’t base laws off feelings or extremely rare cases where the person’s true intentions can be challenged. In my experience, the only people who express any kind of fear of AMAB people are activists involved in groups that claim to focus on women’s issues who have an incentive to advocate for transphobia. Sometimes they have financial connections to American evangelical groups, that sorta thing. Rape survivors don’t tend to have that opinion in my experience, although maybe you’ve met some who thought differently, idk. Either way, I have to say from a personal experience that I don’t want my rights taken away based off such weak arguments, and in the case of the US and UK, they rarely stop at segregated spaces, they usually try to remove us completely from public life in an attempt to force us to detransition.
We’ve seen as a result of this court ruling in favour of trans rights that Minns is calling for changes around prisons and sports. Then again in the UK we’re seeing a court ruling against trans rights do the same (although UK Labour, and especially health secretary Wes Streeting, are particularly vile human beings so that might not be a factor).
Based on these two data points, we see trans rights regress when there is a highly publicized court ruling. Keeping matters of trans rights out of the domain of the courts seems like the best way to prevent this from happening.
Enshrining the most important trans rights into law (bathrooms, healthcare, prisons, and general anti-discrimination protections) while leaving issues like gender segregated social activities up to the organizer’s discretion is the best way to protect trans rights.
It’s not so much being invisible as it is avoiding highly publicized debates between “women’s groups” and trans people. There are other, safer, spaces to be visible.
My tone was probably a bit harsh because I was getting frustrated
You poor thing. A marginalised, discriminated group at risk of losing even more of their rights keeps arguing with you, instead of just accepting inequality. That must be frustrating for you
My concern isn’t with transgender people, it’s with transgenderism as a religion. The kind that sees anyone who does not share the same beliefs as them to be the devil incarnate, and will go on holy crusades to impose that view on others.
And often the most dogmatic aren’t even trans themselves. They take a radical position, dunk on anyone who disagrees with them, and think that makes them a hero.
I support the right of trans women to exist in society. I also support the right for them to be treated as women, but I don’t support that view being imposed on others especially by force of law. I don’t think it even qualifies transphobia to not see trans women as women, that’s just a social faux pass.
It’s irrational to think that people that are defending sex-segregated places “fear” trans-women. No one “fears” trans people. What they are concerned about is trans “rights”, which are not actually rights, eroding womens actual rights.
People correctly fear men, because men can be violent and some are exceedingly driven by sex. People assigned male at birth who have transitioned to female don’t have the testosterone that cisgender men have, they don’t have the violence, they don’t have the overriding sex drive
People assigned male at birth who have transitioned to female don’t have the testosterone that cisgender men have, they don’t have the violence, they don’t have the overriding sex drive
The majority of trans women never transition medically, so even if that were true - which it isn’t - it’s a moot point. Testosterone isn’t what causes violence or sex assaults. A leopard doesn’t change their spots just because it starts calling itself a tiger.
The first paragraph here sounds unnervingly like an attempt to rationalise bigotry.
People are uncomfortable with a lot of things and it’s usually their problem, not everyone elses.
It’s not bigotry for women to be uncomfortable around men in women only space. While I try my best to treat trans women as women, it’s not right to demand that women feel as comfortable around trans women as they do around cis women.
#AND THERE IT IS.
Begone, bigot.
If you think this is bigotry then you don’t know what bigotry is.
Tenderizer literally called transwomen men. That’s pretty textbook bigotry. Not sure what you’re complaining about here, apart from the fact that Taleya called it what it was.
I did not. I was referred to cis men in that sentence, to explain why the term bigotry doesn’t apply to matters of privacy. Either way treating that as some kind of gotcha is so very expected.
Oh dear. Please don’t try that martyred crap. There is a very clear line of conversational progression here and you literally said "It’s not bigotry for women to be uncomfortable around men in women only space. "
You must be a lot of fun at parties.
Trans women are male. Saying so isn’t bigotry. Anyway that’s not even what that person said, so it’s definitely not bigotry.
saying so is very much bigotry, no matter how much you dislike people calling you out on your bullshit
How is biological reality “bigotry”?
Male is a sex. What sex do you think trans women are?
“Biological reality” in this context is extremely bad faith wording that refuses to accept the malleability of gender.
No one is buying it.
I understand that you’re coming at this from a reasonable place, but this comment seems unusually hostile in a way your previous comments weren’t. I understand what you’re saying about the role of emotions, but we have to decide as a society that your emotions end where others’ rights begin, otherwise we could go down a very dark path. Racists could easily argue that banning indigenous ppl from white society is valid because they have their own indigenous communities.
My tone was probably a bit harsh because I was getting frustrated with how dogmatic the “trans women are women” crowd is. Yes we should individually treat them as such, the law should also treat them as such, but drawing a legal line that they should be treated as such is a step too far.
The needs to trans people should be accommodated. But the preferences of the more dogmatic trans people should not be respected at any cost, there has to be room for another’s comfort.
I am a trans woman myself so I understand how they feel. We’re an inherently small part of the population and there’s an extreme sense of vulnerability that comes with that. I think you’d understand if you were part of the demographic. I’m sorry that you feel frustrated though, truly, because I know that you mean well.
Once again I understand what you’re saying and acknowledge that you’re not coming at this from a place of malice (at least that’s how I see it). That being said, I’ve never met anyone who actually had some of kind phobia of people assigned male at birth (AMAB), or trans women specifically, in the context that you’re describing. I think it’s a wedge issue that causes people to feel strongly without there really being much rational basis for it, which I think you acknowledged to an extent? We can’t base laws off feelings or extremely rare cases where the person’s true intentions can be challenged. In my experience, the only people who express any kind of fear of AMAB people are activists involved in groups that claim to focus on women’s issues who have an incentive to advocate for transphobia. Sometimes they have financial connections to American evangelical groups, that sorta thing. Rape survivors don’t tend to have that opinion in my experience, although maybe you’ve met some who thought differently, idk. Either way, I have to say from a personal experience that I don’t want my rights taken away based off such weak arguments, and in the case of the US and UK, they rarely stop at segregated spaces, they usually try to remove us completely from public life in an attempt to force us to detransition.
What rights do you think are trying to be taken away?
We’ve seen as a result of this court ruling in favour of trans rights that Minns is calling for changes around prisons and sports. Then again in the UK we’re seeing a court ruling against trans rights do the same (although UK Labour, and especially health secretary Wes Streeting, are particularly vile human beings so that might not be a factor).
Based on these two data points, we see trans rights regress when there is a highly publicized court ruling. Keeping matters of trans rights out of the domain of the courts seems like the best way to prevent this from happening.
Enshrining the most important trans rights into law (bathrooms, healthcare, prisons, and general anti-discrimination protections) while leaving issues like gender segregated social activities up to the organizer’s discretion is the best way to protect trans rights.
Fair enough, I agree with that. It’s disillusioning that the only way to be safe is to be invisible.
It’s not so much being invisible as it is avoiding highly publicized debates between “women’s groups” and trans people. There are other, safer, spaces to be visible.
You poor thing. A marginalised, discriminated group at risk of losing even more of their rights keeps arguing with you, instead of just accepting inequality. That must be frustrating for you
My concern isn’t with transgender people, it’s with transgenderism as a religion. The kind that sees anyone who does not share the same beliefs as them to be the devil incarnate, and will go on holy crusades to impose that view on others.
And often the most dogmatic aren’t even trans themselves. They take a radical position, dunk on anyone who disagrees with them, and think that makes them a hero.
I support the right of trans women to exist in society. I also support the right for them to be treated as women, but I don’t support that view being imposed on others especially by force of law. I don’t think it even qualifies transphobia to not see trans women as women, that’s just a social faux pass.
It’s irrational to fear people identified as male at birth whose testosterone is suppressed
It’s irrational to think that people that are defending sex-segregated places “fear” trans-women. No one “fears” trans people. What they are concerned about is trans “rights”, which are not actually rights, eroding womens actual rights.
People correctly fear men, because men can be violent and some are exceedingly driven by sex. People assigned male at birth who have transitioned to female don’t have the testosterone that cisgender men have, they don’t have the violence, they don’t have the overriding sex drive
The majority of trans women never transition medically, so even if that were true - which it isn’t - it’s a moot point. Testosterone isn’t what causes violence or sex assaults. A leopard doesn’t change their spots just because it starts calling itself a tiger.