How bad would GPS outage actually end up being? I am assuming that shipping and aviation are the most serious potential problems, what kind of backup do they have if any?
Normal people can just read a map easily enough without it, but that isn’t such an easy option at sea or in the sky.
GPS is used for a lot more than just navigation. It’s used as a precise time clock for many things like ensuring computers can manage data or even wireless Telecom. A lot of computer systems depend on accurate time keeping.
Huh… is there no backup system in place for that? Why don’t they just use the internet instead given that they are connected to it in the first place. How precise does it need to be and what is it used for, curious why that is a thing.
Accurate time is really important for computers for a lot of reasons.
Cell towers divide time into slots that different phones each get time in. If your time isn’t precise you might speed up or slow down which causes a slot to get a smaller or larger amount of time causing collisions. Handoffs between different towers need accurate timing to know exactly when one tower should release control of a handset.
NTP uses something called stratums. Basically stratum 0 is an atomic clock, stratum 1 is a device that talks to an atomic clock, but internally has its own time keeping. Then all the NTP servers moat people actually use are stratum 2+. Not only that, the Internet adds a ton of jitter because of how unreliable and unpredictable it is.
GPS satellites have atomic clocks on them making them stratum 0. They directly transmit that time. Thus receivers can become stratum 1 and have a very controllable, low jitter time source. Internet NTP isn’t precise enough. This kind of stuff requires microsecond precision.
As one option, they weren’t old enough, so they did not have to. As another, they moved and GPS app was too convenient, never learned to drive without it.
I mean, at least here in US, smartphones with (easy and free) turn-by-turn navigation apps have been widespread since early 2010s. So anyone born around 2000 had access to the tech in their teens. And even earlier than 2000s if they only needed it as adults. And before that, in-car GPS units were available in 2000s. So not that new either.
it’s the same situation with writing cursive. use it or lose it. and for the effort in using it for little to no gain, or even a detriment, why would you put forth the effort to learn such skills? especially since now a days you have to pick up ten times the skills of people in the past
that’s good for the millennials, though i was never good at it. i didn’t have a car in the military, and relied on public transport. but i could scrape by. it would be more of a shock for younger generations
We’ve had boats and aircraft for longer than we’ve had GPS so we’d be fine. It would be a pain but not devastating.
Things like missiles and other devices with no human operator they’d have to rely on inertial navigation systems which are notoriously inaccurate. So that would be a problem. There’s a new system which works on quantum magic nonsense but I have no idea how accurate that is.
Isn’t inertial stuff mainly for ICBMs, shorter ranged missiles don’t care about their position around the planet. Though I think medium range stuff often does use it
My father was an airline captain. When he started flying, VOR was a major navigation aid, and I imagine most airplanes have VOR receivers (highly directional radios). The next big upgrade were inertial navigation systems, but I don’t know if newer planes have then, since GPS was considered pretty resilient, due to the sheer amount of satellites. But yeah, planes have been getting to their destinations by one way or another since the beginning.
How bad would GPS outage actually end up being? I am assuming that shipping and aviation are the most serious potential problems, what kind of backup do they have if any?
Normal people can just read a map easily enough without it, but that isn’t such an easy option at sea or in the sky.
GPS is used for a lot more than just navigation. It’s used as a precise time clock for many things like ensuring computers can manage data or even wireless Telecom. A lot of computer systems depend on accurate time keeping.
Just to name one that would basically… impact all: cell towers use gps for timing. You would basically loose cell service
Huh… is there no backup system in place for that? Why don’t they just use the internet instead given that they are connected to it in the first place. How precise does it need to be and what is it used for, curious why that is a thing.
Accurate time is really important for computers for a lot of reasons.
Cell towers divide time into slots that different phones each get time in. If your time isn’t precise you might speed up or slow down which causes a slot to get a smaller or larger amount of time causing collisions. Handoffs between different towers need accurate timing to know exactly when one tower should release control of a handset.
NTP uses something called stratums. Basically stratum 0 is an atomic clock, stratum 1 is a device that talks to an atomic clock, but internally has its own time keeping. Then all the NTP servers moat people actually use are stratum 2+. Not only that, the Internet adds a ton of jitter because of how unreliable and unpredictable it is.
GPS satellites have atomic clocks on them making them stratum 0. They directly transmit that time. Thus receivers can become stratum 1 and have a very controllable, low jitter time source. Internet NTP isn’t precise enough. This kind of stuff requires microsecond precision.
As someone I know says, “have you met people?”. There are many who cannot get around without GPS and direction, and some are well aware of this.
How did those people function in society in the past? GPS is pretty new. At some point it is just a skill issue.
As one option, they weren’t old enough, so they did not have to. As another, they moved and GPS app was too convenient, never learned to drive without it.
I mean, at least here in US, smartphones with (easy and free) turn-by-turn navigation apps have been widespread since early 2010s. So anyone born around 2000 had access to the tech in their teens. And even earlier than 2000s if they only needed it as adults. And before that, in-car GPS units were available in 2000s. So not that new either.
it’s the same situation with writing cursive. use it or lose it. and for the effort in using it for little to no gain, or even a detriment, why would you put forth the effort to learn such skills? especially since now a days you have to pick up ten times the skills of people in the past
I would say its more like riding a bike, you don’t exactly forget how to do it. If you can’t you probably never could.
that’s good for the millennials, though i was never good at it. i didn’t have a car in the military, and relied on public transport. but i could scrape by. it would be more of a shock for younger generations
You were in the military and are not good at reading a map?
there is very few places to go on a boat. and the navigators keep that sort of stuff to themselves
We’ve had boats and aircraft for longer than we’ve had GPS so we’d be fine. It would be a pain but not devastating.
Things like missiles and other devices with no human operator they’d have to rely on inertial navigation systems which are notoriously inaccurate. So that would be a problem. There’s a new system which works on quantum magic nonsense but I have no idea how accurate that is.
The missile knows where it is at all times, because it knows where it isn’t.
(Link, if you are one of the lucky 10000)
Isn’t inertial stuff mainly for ICBMs, shorter ranged missiles don’t care about their position around the planet. Though I think medium range stuff often does use it
My father was an airline captain. When he started flying, VOR was a major navigation aid, and I imagine most airplanes have VOR receivers (highly directional radios). The next big upgrade were inertial navigation systems, but I don’t know if newer planes have then, since GPS was considered pretty resilient, due to the sheer amount of satellites. But yeah, planes have been getting to their destinations by one way or another since the beginning.
Planes also use automated celestial navigation since they are above the clouds.